Was there a third shooter?

This page will take a detailed look at all of the witnesses whose interviews include information that indicates there may have been three or more perpetrators involved in the Columbine High School Shooting.

The witness interviews analyzed on this page come from a list of 101+ witnesses purported to have seen, heard, or heard about a third suspect compiled in the early days right after the 11k report was released. However, the original list was a "catch-all" list. Meaning, any witness who indicated anything at all about a third shooter - whether or not it was their direct experience - was added to this list.

• Why this list has been reconstructed
• Criteria for the revised list
• Witnesses retained on the revised list (37)
• Witnesses omitted from the revised list (44)
• Removed witnesses grouped by reason
  • Witnesses who did not see any suspects (9)
  • Witnesses removed because of hearsay (7)
  • Witnesses whose identification wasn't genuine (2)
  • Witnesses who saw and/or identified only Harris and/or Klebold (11)
  • Witnesses removed for other reasons (16)
• Revised list of testimony that could support a third suspect (37)
  • Witnesses whose statements still need to be verified by this encyclopedia

Why this list has been reconstructed

Witness interviews can't always be taken at face value for several reasons:

• False memory is a real phenomenon and there are several clear cases on this list (and this goes both ways - some witnesses clearly developed false memories from one interview to another based on hearing rumors about the identity of additional shooters, and law enforcement officers also influenced witnesses to change their stories based on the power of their suggestion).
• Transference is a real phenomenon and there are several clear cases on this list.
• Witness intimidation/coercion is a real phenomenon and there are several clear cases on this list.
• We don't have access to original interviews - only the second-hand summaries as prepared by law enforcement.
• We can't verify that all information provided by a witness has been included in their interview(s). In fact, in some cases, key witnesses were interviewed by two officers at different times who wrote summaries that are completely contradictory, such as IO #1 stating the witness didn't see any suspects or see any weapons, while IO #2 provides a hand-written statement by the witness detailing their encounter with a gunman.

In order to make it easier to identify which witness interviews are more credible and relevant to the third shooter theory, we've revised this list by removing some witnesses. However, to maintain the integrity of the original list and people's need to verify the information for themselves, this page includes the original list and we've categorized the witnesses who have been removed from the revised list.

For example, some witnesses didn't see any suspects and were added to the original list based on hearsay repeated by someone else. In some cases, the witness identified someone other than Harris or Klebold simply because they heard that individual was a shooter - not because they think they saw them. Some witnesses actually did identify Harris and/or Klebold, and only offered other names in their later testimonies after discussing the matter with others. In several cases, a witness is quoted as saying something that isn't in their interview, can't be verified through another source, or the page number cited doesn't contain the claim.

Criteria for the revised list

A new list has been created that includes only witnesses whose interviews meet the following criteria:

• First-hand accounts only with the exception of witnesses who were told information by other witnesses directly during their escape/rescue.
• They described seeing three or more different suspects, either at once, or separately.
• They described suspects that don't match Harris or Klebold's descriptions.
• They named a suspect other than Harris or Klebold on their own, without influence.
• They described suspicious activity, especially involving TCM members.

Witnesses retained on the revised list (37)

The following witnesses from the original list have been retained on the revised list:

These witness summaries are included in detail toward the end of this page.

First name	Last name	Location	Interview page #
Ann Marie	Hochhalter	Other Injured	[11k, pp.215-216]
Ashley	Egeland	Class Area	[11k, pp.5247-5268]
Bijen	Monte	Outside	[11k, pp.1014-1026]
Brenton	Hooker	Math	[11k, pp.1464-1467]
Cara	Sander	Outside	[11k, pp.1121-1124]
Chris	Wisher	Outside	[11k, pp.1261]
Courtney	Haulman	Outside	[11k, pp.839-844]
Dick	Strange	Outside	[11k, pp.1193-1195]
Erik	Sunde	Cafe	[11k, pp.4572-4578]
Erin	Walton	Science	[11k, pp.2241-2248]
Jake	Apodaca	Outside	[11k, pp.652-657]
Jason	Adams	Non-Columbine	[11k, pp.7420-7423]
Jason	Brehm	Outside	[11k, pp.718-722]
Jay	Gallantine	Cafe	[11k, pp.3085-3091]
Jennifer	Smull	Science	[11k, pp.2182-2192]
Jennifer	Tindall	Outside	[11k, pp.1224-1237]
John	Spahlinger	Outside	[11k, pp.1175-1178]
John	Vandemark	Science	[11k, pp.2216-2223]
Jonathan	Cole	Outside	[11k, pp.748-753]
Jordan	Grimm	Hallway	[11k, pp.5700-5702]
Jordan	Grimm	Hallway	[10k, pp.22432-22433]
Josh	Brinkley	Cafe	[11k, pp.2527-2530]
Joshua	Lapp	Library	[11k, pp.476-490]
Julie	Thomas		[ASCO p.808]
Katelyn	Place	Cafe	[11k, pp.4081-4088]
Katelyn	Place	Cafe	[El Paso, pp.21-285]
Lacey	Hohn	Cafe	[11k, pp.3341-3346]
Lacey	Hohn	Cafe	[El Paso pp.1-186]
Lacey	Smith	Cafe	[11k, pp.4464-4475]
Leigh Ann	Clark	Cafe	[11k, pp.2722-2728]
Leiha	Murphy	Cafe	[11k, pp.3827-3840]
Mark	Hengel	Hallway	[11k, pp.5898-5903]
Matt	Katzenmeier	Cafe	[11k, pp.3423-3425]
Melissa	Chavez	Agency Reports	[11k, p.9023]
Patrick	Vassar	Cafe	[11k, pp.4690-4694]
Richard	Olejniczak		[no interview available]
Ryan	Ezzie	Cafe	[11k, pp.2966-2967]
Ryan	Ezzie	Cafe	[10k, pp.20612-20613]
Sara	Houy	Library	[11k, pp.379-392]
Tiffany	Lien	Outside	[11k, pp.962-975]
William	Arapkiles	Outside	[11k, pp.658-661]

Witnesses omitted from the revised list (44)

The following witnesses from the original list have been omitted from the revised list:

First name	Last name	Location	Interview page #
Adam	Thompson	Science	[11k, pp.2213-2215]
Alex	Babiniec	Science	[11k, pp.1752-1756]
Alicia	Maes	Cafe	[11k, pp.3613-3619]
Anthony	Sammauro	Cafe	[11k, pp.4297-4304]
Amy	Evans	Cafe	[11k, pp.2960-2965]
Amy	Terry	Science	[11k, pp.2205-2209]
Andrew	Lagerborg	Science	[11k, pp.1999-2000]
Brandi	Wiseman	Cafe	[11k, pp.4750-4761]
Bryan	Frye	Outside	[11k, pp.805-816]
Chris	Therrien	Outside	[11k, pp.1202-1208]
Crystal	Archuleta	Cafe	[11k, pp.2363-2370]
Daphne	Bacca	Agency Reports	[11k, pp.8894]
David	Eagle	Science	[11k, pp.1877-1886]
Devon	Adams	H&K Associates	[11k, pp.10614-10618]
Diwata	Perez	Library	[11k, pp.537-541]
Evan	Todd	Library	[11k, p.8826; pp.161-179]
Frank	DeAngelis	Hallway	[11k, pp.5670-5682]
Gary	Talocco		[testimony potentially sealed]
Holly	Pinkham	Math	[11k, pp.1620]
Jason	Baer	Science	[11k, pp.1757-1761]
Jessica	Holliday	Library	[11k, pp.364-378]
Jessica	Rusch	Science	[11k, pp.2142-2145]
John	Curtis	Cafe	[11k, pp.2785-2792]
Josh	Ortwein		[No interview available]
Kacey	Ruegsegger	Library Injured	[11k, pp.118-130]
Katy	Beer	Hallway	[11k, pp.5835-5836]
Kristen	Long	Choir	[11k, pp.5026-5032]
Kristen	Long	Choir	[10k, p.20245]
Leigh	Kamens	Cafe	[11k, pp.3407-3411]
Lindsay	Elmore	Library	[11k, pp.329-344]
Lindsay	Wyant	Cafe	[11k, pp.4798-4802]
Mark	Opfer	Outside	[11k, pp.1061-1066]
Mindy	Pollock	Harris Vol. 1	[11k, p.10010]
Monica	Schuster	Outside	[11k, pp.1138-1145]
Monica	Schuster	Outside	[10k pp.19470-19472]
Natalie	Baker	Cafe	[11k, pp.2390-2395]
Nathan	Anema	Cafe	[11k, pp.2346-2360]
Nathan	Dykeman	H&K Associates	[11k, pp.10693-10715]
Pam	Wood		[No interview available]
Patrick	McDuffee	H&K Associates	[11k, pp.10783-10795]
Rusty	Shyler		[No interview available]
Seth	Biggi	Cafe	[11k, pp.2474-2477]
Seth	Dubois	Cafe	[11k, pp.2907-2915]
Seth	Dubois	Cafe	[El Paso, pp.21-125]
Terry	Lawson	Cafe	[11k, pp.3530-3532]
Timothy	Kastle	Cafe	[11k, pp.3415-3422]
Trista	Fogerty		[10k, p.23144-23145]

Removed witnesses grouped by reason

Witnesses who did not see any suspects (9)

First name	Last name	Location	Interview page #
Adam	Thompson	Science	[11k, pp.2213-2215]
Alex	Babiniec	Science	[11k, pp.1752-1756]
Daphne	Bacca	Agency Reports	[11k, pp.8894]
Devon	Adams	H&K Associates	[11k, pp.10614-10618]
Andrew	Lagerborg	Science	[11k, pp.1999-2000]
Katy	Beer	Hallway	[11k, pp.5835-5836]
Lindsay	Elmore	Library	[11k, pp.329-344]
Lindsay	Wyant	Cafe	[11k, pp.4798-4802]
Trista	Fogerty		[10k, p.23144-23145]

1. Adam Thompson [11k, pp.2213-2215]

From Thompson's interview:

"He did not observe any of the individuals involved in the attack, or their victims." (11k, p.2215)

2. Alex Babiniec [11k, pp.1752-1756]

From Babiniec's interview:

"He said he does not think he saw any of the trench coat students or associates in school the day of the shooting." (11k, p.1754)

3. Daphne Bacca [11k, pp.8894]

Daphne Bacca was an officer from the Littleton Police Department and was not a witness to the crime.

Bacca was added to this list simply because she reported the names of 4 possible suspects: Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Chris Morris, and Robert Perry. This doesn't qualify as suspect identification. It just means Bacca was reporting on the names of suspects provided by witnesses.

From Bacca's interview:

"It should also be noted that Daphne Bacca had listed four names of possible suspects. Those names included Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Chris Morris, and Robert Perry. It is unknown to this IO how Daphne Bacca had gleaned that information." (11k, p.8895)

4. Devon Adams [11k, pp.10614-10618]

Adams wasn't on campus during the shooting and didn't identify any suspects. She told police she thought three specific people were directly involved. However, she named these three individuals based solely on her personal feelings toward and perception of the individuals. This doesn't qualify as suspect identification.

From Adams' interview:

"I asked Devon who else was involved directly in the Columbine incident, and she, without hesitation stated, [redacted], [redacted], and [redacted]. I asked why she thought that, ad Devon got quiet, and again looked down to the floor, then she stated that she just knew." (11k, p.10616)

When Devon was asked about why she felt [redacted] might be involved with the incident, she said [redacted] had in the past threaten [sic] her on the computer over a [sic] incident at Columbine. She said she did not have any proof he was involved other than he gets mad very easy and likes to kick in cars."

"When asked about [redacted], she said he like [sic] to beat up his girl friends and other people for no reason. She said her only reason for giving his name was that he scared her."

"When asked about [redacted], she said he was on the Columbine debate team with her last year. During one meeting he was mad at someone and was looking for a pipe to beat them up with. Devon said he was a very violet person. She said he quit school one semester before he was to graduate." (11k, p.10618)

5. Andrew Lagerborg [11k, pp.1999-2000]

Lagerborg never saw any suspects; he only heard gunshots.

Lagerborg was added to this list because he reported running down the South hall and heard gunshots.
Lagerborg then ran through a room to the North hallway when he heard a shooter down that hall.

From Lagerborg's interview:

"Lagerborg said he ran down the South hall but a gunman was at the other end of the hall and panicked people were running back at him so he redirected his flight through a [computer?] room to the North hallway. He heard a shooter down that hall as well. He never actually saw the shooters, only heard their [location?] based on the sound of the gunshots." (11k, p.2000)

We don't have a good enough visual of the school's halls to see how they are connected and to see where these shots may have come from and how this is suspect. If someone can show how these hallways would indicate a suspect other than Harris or Klebold, we'll move Lagerborg to the updated list.

6. Katy Beer [11k, pp.5835-5836]

Beer never saw any suspects and only heard gunshots as she ran out of the building.

Beer was added to this list because she allegedly told investigators that she saw a "third shooter" by the administrative offices and saw the windows get shot out. This is cited as coming from page 6636. However, that's the middle of Matthew Houck's testimony and he never mentions Beer.

From Beer's interview:

"They ran with the remainder of the students back down the hallway and she and her friend went down the hall towards the front office. Just prior to the front office, they could hear popping noises that she believes were gunshots. The shots sounded like they were coming from the front office." (11k, p.5835)

7. Lindsay Elmore [11k, pp.329-344]

Elmore saw no suspects, only "shadows" as stated in her interview.

Elmore was added to this list because she told investigators she believed there were 3 gunmen.

It should be noted that Elmore saw no suspects at all. Her belief that there were three gunmen was admittedly based on the fact that she heard so many gunshots while she was hiding in the library.

From Elmore's interview:

"R/I asked Lindsay Elmore if she ever saw the suspects. Lindsay replied "no I didn't want to move and was only able to see shadows." R/I asked why in her written statement did she make comment [sic] "I believe there were 3 gunmen." Lindsay stated because of the amount of shots fired "I thought there had to be more than 2 shooters." (11k, p.334)

8. Lindsay Wyant [11k, pp.4798-4802]

Wyant saw no suspects or gunmen or anyone throwing bombs. She only heard gunshots and explosions.

Wyant was added to this list because she reported hearing gunshots in the cafeteria and library at the same time. However, the context of her statement doesn't indicate the gunshots were happening in both places at once.

From Wyant's interview:

"I asked Lindsey if she heard any shooting of [sic] any explosions while in the office and she said she heard shots being fired from above (the library area) and also heard shots coming from the cafeteria area." (11k, p.4800)

Wyant was relaying to investigators the locations where she heard shots while she was hiding in the cook's office in the cafeteria for about three hours. Wyant's testimony does not claim the shots were occurring at the same time.

9. Trista Fogerty [10k, p.23144-23145]

Fogerty did not see any suspects. She told investigators she believes there were more than four people involved in the shooting, but this is not based on her experience and is speculation.

From Fogerty's interview:

"During incident, Trista Fogarty said she was one of the first groups of students out of the school. Went to Leawood Park. Heard shots & explosives but did not see the shooters. May have seen Alex Marsh in library early on 4-20-99. Did not see any of the possible shooters."

"Trista said se believes, as do most other students, that there was [sic] more than 4 people involved in shooting." (11k, p.23144)

Witnesses removed because of hearsay (7)

First name	Last name	Location	Interview page #
Amy	Evans	Cafe	[11k, pp.2960-2965]
Amy	Terry	Science	[11k, pp.2205-2209]
Holly	Pinkham	Math	[11k, pp.1620]
Jessica	Rusch	Science	[11k, pp.2142-2145]
Natalie	Baker	Cafe	[11k, pp.2390-2395]
Seth	Biggi	Cafe	[11k, pp.2474-2477]
Seth	Dubois	Cafe	[11k, pp.2907-2915
Seth	Dubois	Cafe	[El Paso, pp.21-125]

1. Amy Evans [11k, pp.2960-2965]

From Evans' interview:

"EVANS stated she briefly saw a male wearing a black trench coat running around outside of the cafeteria. She could not describe the person and said she did not see a weapon." (11k, p.2962)

Evans was added to the original list because when investigators interviewed Melissa Couris (10k, p.22205), she told them "Evans said there was a third shooter and it was [redacted]." It's clear that if Evans made this statement to Couris, it was not because she saw[redacted]. Why would she say this? Everyone was talking about additional shooters, and its clear Evans was repeating what she heard from others.

Note: Amy Evans was on Harris' "shit list."

2. Amy Terry [11k, pp.2205-2209]

From Terry's interview:

"Terry never saw any suspects, nor did she see any weapons." (11k, 2208)

Terry was added to this list because her friend, Elisha Encinas, told Terry she saw multiple shooters in the cafeteria wearing trench coats and masks, and when running upstairs, she saw an additional 4 people in trench coats coming through the glass doors at the West end of the main hallway. This was not witnessed by Terry.

3. Holly Pinkham [11k, pp.1620]

Pinkham saw no suspects and personally heard no gunshots. Once she had been in Clement Park for a while, someone she was with began hearing gunshots. She, however, did not hear gunshots.

Pinkham was originally added to this list because she told investigators she thought there had to have been more than two shooters because her friend, Dan Goin, got his shoe shot off in the middle hall while someone was shooting in the cafeteria. This is not only hearsay, but someone having their shoe shot off doesn't indicate there was a third suspect.

Furthermore, Pinkham never claimed to hear gunshots in the cafeteria while her friend, Dan, had his shoe shot off in the hallway. Pinkham did not report hearing any gunshots and told investigators she "had not heard any bangs or booms."

There is no testimony for a "Dan Goin" or any "Dan" with a last name even remotely close to "Goin" in the 11k. There are (10) witnesses named "Dan," (20) witnesses named "Daniel," (5) witnesses named "Danielle," (1) witness named "Dannon," (2) witnesses named "Danny," and (1) witness named "Dante."

Pinkham's IO checked the Rapid Start system for a "Dan Goin" and found that lead #4462 listed him, but there was no lead to interview him. The IO created a lead sheet and submitted it to the Rapid Start system, but it appears he was never interviewed. It's unclear where the story of Goin getting his shoe shot off came from.

However, it should be noted that Goin was one of a few people who allegedly saw Robert Perry shooting. If Perry was involved in the shooting, it would be a major coincidence that Goin got his shoe shot off and was never interviewed. According to Lucas Milne's interview, he saw [redacted] - likely Perry - in the cafeteria in his trench coat at 11 a.m. and he says that Goin, Brandon Little, and Bijen Monte all saw [redacted] shooting at the school.

4. Jessica Rusch [11k, pp.2142-2145]

Rusch saw 1 suspect matching Dylan Klebold's description while barricaded in a science room. She could not identify the suspect. After describing the suspect to her boyfriend, he told her it was [redacted].

Rusch told investigators she could not identify the suspect she saw, but she spoke with her boyfriend, Patrick McDuffee, after the incident. After describing the suspect to McDuffee, he told Rusch it sounded like [redacted]. Rusch and McDuffee came to the conclusion that the suspect she saw was [redacted] "because McDuffee knew he was associated with the gang known as the Trench Coat Mafia." (11k, p.2144)

Rusch could not identify the suspect. Her boyfriend's belief that the suspect was [redacted] based on Rusch's description doesn't count as witness identification.

From Rusch's interview:

"She stated the individual was about 6'00" tall, skinny, and she described his manner of dress being in all black, telling me that the party had a black baseball cap on that was backwards. She said he had a black face mask, black jeans, and a black trench coat. Jessica said under the baseball cap, she could see the individual's hair and described it as being brown in color, curly, and about collar length."

"She stated she did not know the age of the individual. I asked Jessica if she could identify that person and tell me the individual's name. She told me she could not, but she had a conversation with her boyfriend, Patrick McDuffee, after the incident. She described the individual that she saw at the science room door and they came to the conclusion that it was [redacted] because McDuffee knew he was associated with the gang known as the Trench Coat Mafia." (11k, p.2144)

5. Natalie Baker [11k, pp.2390-2395]

Baker saw 1 suspect wearing a black trench coat, but did not see a weapon and did not observe the suspect fire any shots.

Baker was added to this list because her mother, Deborah Baker, told investigators her daughter said there "had been possibly two other shooters other than Harris and Klebold, but Natalie did not know them."

Baker only saw 1 suspect she could not identify, therefore if she told her mother there may have been 2 more people involved that is hearsay.

The hearsay comment is cited as coming from page 2583, but that's part of Nicholas Buhrer's testimony and he does not mention Natalie or her mother in his interview.

From Baker's interview:

"Natalie reported that there were shots, and while she was hiding under the table she noticed a male subject standing in the hall in front of the student store near the Southeast corner of the cafeteria. She continued to say that this subject was wearing a black trench coat but she could not say whether this person was armed. She did say that she did not observe this subject fire any shots." (11k, p.2391)

6. Seth Biggi [11k, pp.2474-2477]

Biggi saw no suspects or weapons.

Biggi was added to this list because he reported that another witness, Courtney Shakowski, told him she saw 4 or 5 Trench Coat Mafia members enter the cafeteria with a big, black duffel bag. Biggi also reported that there were rumors going around about a third shooter.

This is hearsay, not witness identification.

According to her interview, Shakowski reported seeing 2 people walk into the cafeteria with black trench coats between 11:10-11:20 a.m., but saw no guns. She stated one person was "really tall" while the other was "significantly shorter." This matches Harris & Klebold's description. (11k, p.1156)

From Biggi's interview:

"After his return to school at Chatfield High School, a girl named Courtney Shakowski stated that just after fourth period she saw four or five TCM members enter the cafeteria. She stated that one of them was carrying a big black duffel bag. They entered the cafeteria from the senior parking lot. There are also rumors going around that there was a third shooter." (11k, p.2476)

7. Seth Dubois [11k, pp.2907-2915; El Paso, pp.21-125]

Dubois saw 1 shooter matching Klebold's description and identified the shooter as Klebold.

Dubois was added to this list because he told Katherine Carlston that "Robert Perry was seen shooting a girl in the back while leaving the library." The source of this claim is cited as coming from EP21-125, but I'm not sure what report the page reference is from. However, this is addressed in Dubois' interview.

In Dubois' interview, he clarifies that the story about Perry (in his interview the name is redacted) came about because his older sister had a bunch of friends over after the shooting and they started talking about [redacted].

What Seth told Katherine is hearsay and doesn't qualify as suspect identification.

Witnesses whose identification wasn't genuine (2)

First name	Last name	Location	Interview page #
Chris	Therrien	Outside	[11k, pp.1202-1208]
Kristen	Long	Choir	[11k, pp.5026-5032]
Kristen	Long	Choir	[10k, p.20245]

1. Chris Therrien [11k, pp.1202-1208]

Therrien originally could not identify the shooter he saw, but the description matched Dylan Klebold, specifically stating that the suspect had a "large nose."

Only after discussing the incident with Bijen Monte and Brian Frye did Therrien described seeing acne on the shooter's face. Therrien admits to being influenced into thinking he saw [redacted] (Robert Perry) based on what he was told by Monte and Frye.

A sudden description of acne also appears in Frye's follow-up interviews, after he discussed the incident with others. This is a classic example of false memory created by the influence of another witness. In Therrien's case, he admits he was influenced.

Therrien is one of a handful of people who mention seeing acne on a suspect's face, but this group of witnesses only mention acne and name Perry in their second and third interviews, after they heard rumors about Perry's involvement, which suggests they're not stating what they actually saw.

From Therrien's interview:

"Chris saw a tall (6'1") white male, black cap, large nose, shoulder length hair, black trench coat carrying a black 1 1/2 foot long gun, with a "bullet clip" on the underside of the gun." (11k, pp.1203-1204)

"Chris advised me that he had seen a picture of the person he described to me as the shooter at CHS on the outside steps, North of the cafeteria on 4/20/99. He stated that the picture he saw was of [redacted], and he was "pretty sure" he was the shooter he saw that morning at CHS."

I asked Chris what events lead [sic] up to him looking at a picture of [redacted] and calling me on 5/20/99. He stated that on 5/18/99 he was talking with his friend Bijen Monte, who he was with during the CHS shooting. They were talking about the incident, and Chris advised Bijen that he gave the following description of the investigator that interviewed him. He described the shooter as a WM, 6', large nose, acne, shoulder length hair wearing a black cap, possibly a backwards baseball cap and dark trench coat. He then told Bijen he thinks it was Dylan Klebold, but was not sure.

(Note: Although Therrien says he described seeing acne on the shooter's face in his initial interview, he did not mention acne. This is a classic example of false memory. Monte's story influenced Therrien to believe he saw acne on the shooter's face. The false memory is so strong, he believes he saw the acne from the beginning, but he did not.)

Bijen said it was not Dylan Klebold she saw that morning outside the cafeteria. She then showed Chris a picture of [redacted] from the yearbook. Chris stated that the picture he saw of [redacted] "appeared" to be the person carrying a black 1 1/2 foot long gun at CHS on 4/20/99. Chris stated he also spoke with Brian Frye, who he was with on 4/20/99, and Brian identified [redacted] as a shooter on the outside of the CHS cafeteria." (11k, pp.1207-1208)

2. Kristen Long [11k, pp.5026-5032; 10k, p.20245]

Long saw 1 suspect that mostly matched Klebold's description. Long told investigators she thought the suspect might be [redacted], but told investigators she never saw the suspect's face clearly and could not positively identify the suspect.

Long was added to this list because she named [redacted] as the suspect she saw. However, she didn't identify the suspect - she gave police her best guess as to who she thought the suspect might be. She did not see his face clearly and admitted she could not make a positive identification.

From Long's interview:

"Kristen Long saw suspect running East in South main hallway, described as a tall white male in black trench coat with a nylon or netting covering his head. Long said suspect definitely had dark hair and a large nose - thought it might be [redacted]. Suspect carried a long gun - but not a shotgun she thinks - on suspect's right side. She heard 3-4 shots while she was in auditorium - she thought the suspect was inside the auditorium near the stairway leading to the commons. Overheard Zach Heckler's girlfriend "Devon" say the TCM was going to get even with the school. Long knows TCM members, espe. Tad Boles." (11k, p.20245)

"She looked to her left and saw a really tall male wearing a black trench coat, jogging East through the South main hallway. The individual jogged past the hall that Long was in. Long believed that the male was white because she believes she saw part of his arm. She stated the suspect was dressed in all black and possibly was wearing black gloves. She saw a gun on the right side of the suspect." (11k, p.5030)

Witnesses who saw and/or identified only Harris and/or Klebold (11)

First name	Last name	Location	Interview page #
Alicia	Maes	Cafe	[11k, pp.3613-3619]
Anthony	Sammauro	Cafe	[11k, pp.4297-4304]
Bryan	Frye	Outside	[11k, pp.805-816]
Crystal	Archuleta	Cafe	[11k, pp.2363-2370]
Diwata	Perez	Library	[11k, pp.537-541]
Evan	Todd	Library Injured	[11k, p.8826; pp.161-179]
Jessica	Holliday	Library	[11k, pp.364-378]
Leigh	Kamens	Cafe	[11k, pp.3407-3411]
Nathan	Anema	Cafe	[11k, pp.2346-2360]
Terry	Lawson	Cafe	[11k, pp.3530-3532]
Valeen	Schnurr	Library Injured	[11k, pp.131-150]
Valeen	Schnurr	Library Injured	[10k, p.18969]

1. Alicia Maes [11k, pp.3613-3619]

Alicia initially identified a suspect as [redacted], but revealed she didn't know [redacted] or Klebold before the shooting. If she didn't know [redacted] prior to the shooting, this means she got the name [redacted] from someone else and did not genuinely identify "redacted." She was never shown a lineup when she named "redacted." This means Maes was repeating hearsay. When she saw Klebold's photo on television, she identified Klebold as the suspect she saw.

Another witness, Rachel Nelson, told investigators Maes saw four people with trench coats and guns, but this is hearsay and that's not in Maes' interview.

From Maes' interview:

"She said she saw him reach into his coat and then saw him throw an object into the parking lot. She said she heard an explosion and watched the subject walk toward the soccer field." (11k, pp.3614-3615)

Note: Other witnesses identified the suspect who threw this bomb into the parking lot as Klebold.

"Alicia stated that when she first observed the male in the black trench coat, she thought it was a person known to her as [redacted]. She advised that now, after seeing pictures of Dylan Klebold, she believes that this person may have been him, not [redacted]." (11k, p.3615)

"She said at this point she looked to the area at the top of the exterior stairs on the west side of the cafeteria and saw a suspect whom she thought was student [redacted]. She clarified that this could have been Dylan Klebold, as she did not know either one of them prior to the shooting." (11k, p.3618)

2. Anthony Sammauro [11k, pp.4297-4304]

Sammauro saw one suspect and identified him as Klebold.

From Sammauro's interview: "...looked out West window and identified Dylan Klebold standing on top of hill by stairs and throwing an object into the West parking lot; saw same looking suspect walking toward West cafeteria door from bottom of stairs moments later; saw no other suspect' saw no guns." (11k, p.4298)

"Identified Dylan Klebold outside the cafeteria when shooting began." (11k, 4300)

"As he was going out the doors, he looked back West and saw who he thought was the same suspect he saw throw the object, Dylan, walking down the bottom of the stairs like he was going to go in the West cafeteria doors." (11k, 4301)

Sammauro allegedly said "two suspects came in the front door and one came in the side door." However, this quote from Sammauro is incorrectly attributed to page 5071, which is the end of Alicia Olejniczak's interview. Like most of these additional quotes that come from the 10k report, this is likely not something Sammauro told investigators, but rather, hearsay from an entirely different witness. If anyone knows the correct page number for this alleged quote, please let us know!

3. Bryan Frye [11k, pp.805-816]

From 30 feet away, Frye saw a shooter matching Dylan Klebold's description, but identified him as Eric Harris.

After hearing a rumor that [redacted] turned himself in for participating in the shooting, and looking up [redacted]'s photo in the yearbook, Frye became convinced [redacted] was the shooter he saw. However, Fry's identification of [redacted] wasn't a genuine identification - it was influenced by the rumor he heard.

Fry is one of a handful of people who mention seeing acne on a suspect's face, but this group of witnesses only mention acne and name Perry in their second and third interviews, after they heard rumors about Perry's involvement, which suggests they're not stating what they actually saw.

From Frye's interview:

"He stated that he saw a person standing by this entrance who was wearing a long black trench coat, black pants, black shirt, and black boots. He said this person was not wearing a hat or a mask and he was sure that this person was Eric Harris. He stated that this person was holding a weapon which he later realized was the TEC-9 which he saw several days later in the newspapers and on television." (11k, pp.806-807)

"He advised that while at school, he heard a rumor that [redacted] had turned himself in as having been involved in the shootings at Columbine. He went on to say that when he received his yearbook, he began looking at the pictures of both Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris. He said he then looked at the picture of [redacted] and became convinced in his mind that the person he saw outside the student entrance holding and then shooting the TEC-9 was [redacted], not Eric Harris."

"He advised that the shooter took very long strides and was close enough to him - he estimates about fifteen feet, that he saw the acne on his face." (11k, pp.813-p.814)

"SA Traver then provided photos that had been taken from the cafeteria video camera. After looking at photo #52, from Packet A. Frye stated that the image of Dylan Klebold did look like the person he saw shooting people outside of the school on 4/20/99. He stated that he remembers the firearm being in the person's left hand, and the black ball cap being on backwards, as they are represented in the picture. He stated that on a scale of 1 to 10 he would say that he would give it a seven, that he was sure that this [Klebold] was the person he saw." (11k, pp.815-816)

4. Crystal Archuleta [11k, pp.2363-2370]

Archuleta saw 1 suspect throwing a bomb whom she initially named as [redacted]. The police accidentally revealed that [redacted] was Robert Perry. Prior to the shooting, Archuleta didn't know Harris or Klebold by face or name. She identified Perry based on his 1997 yearbook photo and said she had seen him around school in his trench coat.

Archuleta only saw the suspect's profile for a second or two and described him as "tall, wearing a black trench coat, a black ball cap on backwards, and black warm-up type pants with black high top tennis shoes." (11k, p.2365)

She told investigators the suspect "had on a baseball cap that had a red letter on the front of it." When shown a photo of Dylan Klebold, Archuleta said she believed that is the suspect she saw. (11k, p.2370)

From Archuleta's interview:

"Crystal observed a male party wearing a trench coat, a black ball cap turned around backwards, very tall; that Crystal believed to be a student that she knew as a [redacted]. Crystal observed the party in the trench coat throw one pipe bomb on the hill above the cafeteria. She did not see the party carrying a gun. The party was alone and had no one with him as he then walked up the stairs and into the entrance door next to the library."

"When asked by det. Demmel how she knew it was [redacted] (Perry), she said that Perry was pigeon toe'd [sic] and that the person was walking that way and went up the stairs in a very distinct pigeon toe'd [sic] manner." (11k, p.2364)

"At this time I brought out photos #51 and 54 and had Crystal view them. Crystal looked at Dylan klebold and said that she believed that is the person she saw on the top of the hill. Crystal said that when she saw the male on the hill, he did have a baseball cap on, but in the pictures there is no baseball cap. I asked Crystal if it's a possibility that she saw Dylan and not [redacted] (Perry). She said yes, after looking at the pictures, she does believe that it was Dylan and not [redacted] (Perry)." (11k, p.2370)

5. Diwata Perez [11k, pp.537-541]

Perez saw 2 suspects she identified as Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

Perez was added to this list because it's noted in the Jeffco Agency reports, p.9924, that she and Jessica Holliday could hear more gunshots "elsewhere" in the school while Harris and Klebold were in the library. However, in her interview, Perez never mentions hearing gunshots anywhere else but the library. In Holliday's interview, she says she heard bombs - not gunshots - elsewhere.

6. Evan Todd [11k, p.8826; pp.161-179]

Todd saw 2 suspects and positively identified them as Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

Allegedly, Todd reported hearing bombs in other areas of the school while he was in the library with both Harris & Klebold. However, this statement is not in Todd's testimony.

Page 8826 is cited for Todd, but that page is part of Russ Boatright's interview from the Agency Reports section. The page in question is a transcript of an online interview conducted over AOL between a kid named Jason Rios (not a Columbine student) and someone presenting themselves to be a Columbine student named Jim Rossdale. There is no interview available to the public involving a "Jim Rossdale."

It's also unclear why this page was cited as evidence that Todd heard bombs coming from other areas of the school while he was in the library.

7. Jessica Holliday [11k, pp.364-378]

Holliday saw 2 suspects and positively identified them as Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. She was familiar with both shooters since Eric had dinner at her house two years prior to the shooting and Dylan was in her government economics class.

Holliday was originally added to this list because Holliday reported hearing gunshots "elsewhere" while the shooters were in the library. However, that's not what Holliday's testimony says.

Holliday told investigators she heard bombs - not gunshots - "going off somewhere else in the building." (11k, p.365) In another statement, Holliday was adamant that she heard bombs going off while the two suspects were in the library, but didn't specify where. This makes sense because both suspects set off bombs while they were in the library and both left to go down to the cafeteria where they fired their weapons and set off bombs. When hearing explosions somewhere else in the building, Holliday may have been under the impression that Harris & Klebold were still in the library.

Given the size of the library and the fact that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were exploding bombs all over the library, there's no reason to believe Holliday wasn't simply overwhelmed by the noise and unable to pinpoint where the explosions were coming from. She never specified where she thought the explosions were coming from.

8. Leigh Kamens [11k, pp.3407-3411]

Kamens was added to this list because she allegedly identified [redacted] as one of the gunmen while she was in the green room off of the science hall.

This identification is cited as coming from page 1422, but that is part of Trista Fogarty's testimony and Fogarty never mentions Kamens in her testimony. Furthermore, Kamens did not identify the shooter in her testimony.

9. Nathan Anema [11k, pp.2346-2360]

Anema saw 1 suspect perfectly matching Klebold's description. He told investigators he did not recognize the individual, but then picked Klebold out of a photo lineup as a possible suspect.

Anema was added to this list because he named [redacted] as a possible shooter. However, Anema could not identify the suspect he observed throwing a pipe bomb. When provided a photo lineup, he picked out Klebold and [reacted].

Anema acknowledged that the only reason he picked out [redacted] was because he heard a Trench Coat Mafia member was involved in the shooting, and [redacted] was the first person who came to mind. This doesn't qualify as suspect identification.

From Anema's interview:

"Then, I saw a kid who looked 16 or 17 years old in a trench coat and pants that were both black. He then threw a silver cylinder-shaped canister into the student parking lot. It then [bursted?] into a dark white smoke." (11k, p.2347)

"The man shooting that I saw was a white male from 16 to 18 years old who was probably around 6 feet - maybe a little taller. He was dressed in all black with some sort of hat that was also black. I did not see him shoot anyone so I did not see his gun. I did see him throw a silver canister filled with some sort of gas. That was the last I saw of any gunmen." (11k, p.2350)

"I asked Nathan to describe the suspect that he had seen throw a pipe bomb at Columbine High School on 04-20-99. Nathan said this suspect was a white male, tall in stature, thin build, wearing a black trench coat that may have been constructed out of canvas or similar material (Nathan said he did not believe the trench coat was made out of leather) and hung to just above ground level. Nathan said this suspect was also wearing a black baseball cap that was worn on his head backwards. Nathan said he saw this described suspect remove a pipe bomb from inside of his trench coat jacket, take approximately two steps and then throw the pipe bomb."

"After looking at the lineup sheets, Nathan picked out two photographs as possible suspects, one was in lineup #3 and was photograph #1. This is a photograph of Dylan Klebold. The other possible suspect photograph was in lineup #7 and was photograph #6. This is a photograph of [redacted]. Nathan said he knew who the photograph of Dylan Klebold was, and said he knew Dylan Klebold by name. Nathan said the other photograph he picked out of a lineup as a possible suspect [redacted] he did not know this person's name. He did say that he had seen this person in the hallways of Columbine High School and remembered this person as wearing a trench coat. Nathan said on 04-20-99, when he heard that a Trench Coat Mafia student was responsible for the shooting at Columbine High School, he immediately thought of the person in lineup #7, photograph #6 as the Trench Coat Mafia student. This again, is a photograph of [redacted]." (11k, p.2355)

10. Terry Lawson [11k, pp.3530-3532]

Lawson was added to this list because he allegedly identified a suspect other than Harris or Klebold. This is false. In his interview, Lawson reported seeing 1 suspect and positively identified that suspect as Klebold.

This claim is cited as coming from page 10020, but that's incorrect, and it's more likely from page 10022. This page is from the Jeffco Agency Reports section of the 11k and is a reiteration of Lawson's original testimony with Klebold's name redacted. Nowhere does Lawson name anyone other than Harris or Klebold, and he specifically identified Klebold.

From Lawson's interview:

"He remains standing and looks out the window and observes Dylan Klebold standing near the door to the cafeteria. Lawson stated he has known Klebold for approximately one half of a semester and is positive it was he... Klebold then turns his attention from Lawson to the two individuals running up the hill and shoots at both of them."

"Klebold after shooting at the two individuals running up the hill, reaches into his backpack and produces a pipe bomb approximately 12"-18" in length. Both ends were larger than the diameter of the pipe, appeared to be painted silver."

"Lawson described Klebold as 6'5" - 6'7" in height, skinny, blond hair collar length, wearing a black ankle length trench coat, buttoned up, wearing a black baseball style cap with a red emblem in the front (worn correctly), a black backpack worn on Klebold's back and nothing covering his face." (11k, p.3531)

11. Valeen Schnurr [11k, pp.131-150; 10k, p.18969]

Schnurr had her eyes closed and didn't see who shot her. She initially identified a suspect she saw in the hall as [redacted], but was shown a photo lineup of Klebold and identified Klebold. The suspect she saw in the hall and the suspect who asked her about God did match Klebold's description. Schnurr was added to this list because she initially named [redacted], but she had no trouble identifying Klebold. Nothing about what she describes indicates the suspect wasn't Klebold.

"Per Valeen's mother, Shari Schnurr, Valeen possibly identified her shooter as [redacted]."

"Reinterview Valeen Schnurr and show her photo lineups of Klebold, Harris and [redacted]." (11k, p.18969)

"Met with Val Schnurr at [redacted address] on 4/30/99, with psychologist present, Val was shown photo-line ups of Harris, Klebold, & [redacted]. Identified Klebold as the suspect in library that asked her about God." (11k, p.18970)

"That soon after, two people entered the library throwing bombs and shooting and Val stated that she did not see who shot her as she was under the table (holding hands with Lauren Townsend), and had her eyes closed." (11k, p.133)

"In regards to the person in the hallway seen by Schnurr, she saw him when the shooting and bombs were going off. Schnurr related the person in the hallway could have been one of the shooters. When asked what percent she thought the person was [redacted] she said about 55 to 60 percent." (11k, p.135)

"Valeen Schnurr told IO at one point while making the above observations, she observed a person she believed to be one of the suspects as he moved South past the window in the hallway. Valeen Schnurr stated he was "walking slow and he didn't look in," (referring to looking in the library). When asked to describe this individual, Valeen Schnurr began by stating she originally thought that individual was [redacted] but later realized she was mistaken. Valeen Schnurr stated she now believes the person she saw in the hall walking South was, in fact, Dylan Klebold. Valeen Schnurr went on to explain when she was originally interviewed by law enforcement, she had indicated the person she saw in the hall was [redacted]. Valeen Schnurr stated after being able to see recent photographs of Dylan Klebold (via the media), she's now convinces the person she saw in the hall was, in fact, Dylan Klebold."

"Valeen Schnurr was then asked to describe the person she saw in the hall. Valeen Schnurr stated the person she saw in the hall was a white male, with longer "dark blond" hair. Valeen Schnurr added, the suspect's hair style was "wavy." In respect to his clothing. Valeen Schnurr stated the suspect was wearing a "black collared something," adding it was more likely a coat, but possibly a shirt. Valeen Schnurr stated the reason she could not differentiate whether the garment was a coat or a shirt was due to the fact she could only see it from the mid-chest level up... Valeen Schnurr stated the suspect was also wearing a black baseball cap "backwards." (11k, pp.142-143)

Witnesses removed for other reasons (16)

First name	Last name	Location	Interview page #
David	Eagle	Science	[11k, pp.1877-1886]
Brandi	Wiseman	Cafe	[11k, pp.4750-4761]
Frank	DeAngelis	Hallway	[11k, pp.5670-5682]
Gary	Talocco		[testimony potentially sealed]
Jason	Baer	Science	[11k, pp.1757-1761]
John	Curtis	Cafe	[11k, pp.2785-2792]
Josh	Ortwein		[No interview available]
Kacey	Ruegsegger	Library Injured	[11k, pp.118-130]
Mark	Opfer	Outside	[11k, pp.1061-1066]
Mindy	Pollock	Harris Vol. 1	[11k, p.10010]
Monica	Schuster	Outside	[11k, pp.1138-1145]
Monica	Schuster	Outside	[10k pp.19470-19472]
Nate	Dykeman	H&K Associates	[11k, pp.10693-10715]
Pam	Wood		[No interview available]
Patrick	McDuffee	H&K Associates	[11k, pp.10783-10795]
Rusty	Shyler		[No interview available]
Timothy	Kastle	Cafe	[11k, pp.3415-3422]

1. David Eagle [11k, pp.1877-1886]

Eagle did not identify any suspects because he didn't see their faces. Eagle was removed from the list because the inability to identify a suspect doesn't, by itself, constitute support for a third shooter.

Peering through a classroom window, Eagle saw 1 suspect matching Dylan Klebold's description. He didn't know Klebold or Harris from school and didn't recognize the suspect as Harris or Klebold based on photos broadcast by the media. However, Eagle acknowledged that he never saw the suspect's face due to smoke. If he never saw the suspect's face, he wouldn't recognize the photos of Harris & Klebold's faces.

From Eagle's interview:

"The guy with the gun had black hair looked like it was spiked, shaved on the sides. It also was blond on top (little part). Couldn't see his face because of the smoke. He was a white male, about 5'9", about 18 yrs old, no facial hair, (unsure didn't [??] because of smoke), clothing, he had a black shirt..." (11k, pp.1878-1879)

"David described this person holding the gun as someone with black shaved hair with blonde streaks. The hair was longer on the top than it was on the bottom. He couldn't see any facial features because of the smoke and shadows. He has since seen pictures of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold on television. He did not know these students from school. David said that the person he saw did not look like the people he's seen on television.

David said that he saw the person with the gun from the chest up. He could see a black shirt; the sleeves stopping on the arms, like a tee shirt would fit. David said that there was another person standing next to the killer, but he couldn't see that person at all." (11k, p.1881)

2. Frank DeAngelis [11k, pp.5670-5682]

DeAngelis saw 1 suspect shooting a gun from far away and was unable to see the suspect well enough to confirm their sex or identity.

DeAngelis was originally added to this list because somewhere in another report, someone from law enforcement reported that DeAngelis identified one of the suspects currently in Jeffco custody. However, this was taken out of context.

DeAngelis did not identify the person in custody as the suspect he saw shooting at Columbine. He simply confirmed the identity of the person in custody so police knew who they had detained. In other words, police took a suspect into custody and then asked DeAngelis to identify him. This was likely Chris Morris.

From DeAngelis' interview:

"...he saw a figure of an individual down towards the far West end of the North hall. Frank DeAngelis states the individual was near the West exit/entrance outside. When asked if he could identify that individual, Frank DeAngelis responded in the negative. Frank DeAngelis stated he could not even state for certain the individual was a male but did believe the person was "tall and slender," possibly wearing a "white cap (referring to a ball cap) turned backwards." Frank DeAngelis also thought that individual was wearing a white t-shirt with a black vest. Frank DeAngelis reiterated he could not see the individual well enough to confirm the person's sex or identity."

"Frank DeAngelis stated it was his speculation the individual he could see at the far West entrance was the individual firing the weapon." (11k, pp.5676-5677)

3. Gary Talocco

Talocco's interview was not included in the documents released to the public.

Talocco was originally added to this list because he allegedly told investigators that the school's roof repairman saw 3 people exit a vehicle with Harris and Klebold. The source of this claim is unknown to the group of researchers creating this encyclopedia.

The original list cites p.8876, but that page is part of Debra Granger's interview from the Agency Reports section and contains only a list of 12 police officers who did not know if the shots they fired contacted the suspects.

4. Jason Baer [11k, pp.1757-1761]

Baer's initial testimony says that he did not see anything, but he heard a suspect say that he wanted to die. He was hiding in a science room the entire time.

Baer's second interview states that he saw a suspect in a black trench coat with a gun, but could not identify the suspect.

Neither version of his testimony supports the possibility of a third suspect.

Baer was originally added to this list because his testimony reads, "I heard more than two people yelling to each other saying "over here" & stuff." (11k, p.1759)

There's no reason to believe people saying "over here" were suspects; they could have been students yelling to other students to follow them out when they escaped from the library across the way. It's impossible to know, and it can't be assumed that these statements were made by suspects.

From Baer's interview:

"He saw a white male in a black trench coat with a gun. He could not tell if it was a rifle or a shotgun."

"Baer said because of the trench coat hiding the suspects' physical features he did not see any further identifying features. Baer did not get more than just a quick look at the suspect he saw. Once again as soon as he saw the weapon he did an about face and speedy retreat." (11k, p.1761)

5. John Curtis [11k, pp.2785-2792]

Curtis was originally added to this list because he allegedly saw 3 "attackers." Curtis initially said there may have been 2-4 shooters. However, Curtis did not report seeing 3 suspects. He reported seeing only 2 suspects and was assuming there were 2-4 shooters.

Curtis never saw both suspects together and acknowledges that the two suspects he saw at different times may have been the same person.

When asked to clarify why Curtis thought there may have been more than two suspects, he stated it was because he "heard a lot of discharging of weapons and pipe bombs." (11k, p.2789)

From Curtis' interview:

"I asked him why he believed there might have been more than two suspects involved, and he stated that because he heard a lot of discharging of weapons and pipe bombs. I asked him if he ever saw the suspects together, whether it was two or more, and he stated that he never saw any of the suspects together during the incident." (11k, p.2789)

"Curtis indicated he thought there was possibly two to four shooters. The investigator asked Curtis if it was possible he was only seeing the same two people and he said yes. There was one at the entrance and one downstairs. He indicated it could be very possible they are talking about the same ones. When asked how many Curtis saw, he said two. One was at the West entrance and in the library. He saw the other one outside." (11k, p.2791)

6. Brandi Wiseman [11k, pp.4750-4761]

From Wiseman's interview:

"Brandi said that she looked back toward the West windows and saw an individual, outside, wearing a black trench coat, who appeared to be running South toward the Southwest corner of the cafeteria.

Brandi said that the glimpse she caught of this individual was very brief, and that she did not see his face or any weapon. Brandi said that other than the black trench coat, she did not notice any other clothing or features on this individual." (11k, p.4758)

Wiseman was added to this list because she was hiding in the cafeteria's kitchen and reported hearing gunshots and explosions in the cafeteria and library. The assumption is that Wiseman heard the explosions and gunshots in both places at the same time, therefore there were other shooters, but that's not what her testimony actually says. That's also not evidence of a third shooter.

Wiseman specifically describes hearing people hitting the floor in the library, bookshelves being knocked over, gunshots, and screaming in the library first - then explains that after the commotion in the library, she heard gunshots in the cafeteria. Specifically, she reported hearing the gunmen reloading their weapons, shooting at kitchen appliances, and yelling at each other. (11k, p.4753)

Wiseman's account matches the known activities of Harris & Klebold.

7. Josh Ortwein [No interview available]

No interview with Josh Ortwein has been made available to the public.

Ortwein was added to this list because in Laura Hornbaker's testimony, she told investigators she heard from her friends that Josh Ortwine witnessed the shooting and he was telling everyone that he saw [redacted] shooting a gun." (11k, p.1939)

This is hearsay and does not qualify as witness identification.

8. Kacey Ruegsegger [11k, pp.118-130]

Ruegsegger was removed from the list because the inability to identify a suspect doesn't, by itself, constitute support for a third shooter.

Ruegsegger was shot in the shoulder by Dylan Klebold with the double barrel shotgun from about 6 feet away. She only saw one suspect - Klebold - and only saw his legs and shotgun.

From Ruegsegger's interview:

"She could only see the gunman's legs and thought he may have been wearing black pants. She was unable to recall his footwear. The gunman leaned down and shot her from an estimated distance of five or six feet. She still was only able to see the legs of the shooter. She never saw the second gunman and could not distinguish any accents or identifiable features, including race, from the voices."

"Greg advised IO that his daughter told him she recalled the gun used to shoot her as having two barrels." (11k, p.120)

9. Mark Opfer [11k, pp.1061-1066]

Opfer was walking with Daniel Rohrbough when he saw two white males at the top of the stairs and one was holding a gun. Opfer did not recognize either suspect, but his description of suspect #2 matched Klebold, as he described Klebold's black hat with a "B" on it. He said he thought this suspect was [redacted].

However, Opfer didn't actually identify the shooter. Opfer could not identify the suspect and naming [redacted] was purely a guess. Opfer told investigators he believed the taller suspect was [redacted] simply because [redacted] is about the same height and build as the suspect he saw. Guessing a suspect's identity based on association does not qualify as suspect identification.

From Opfer's interview:

"Was going outside to write a report at 11:30 AM (lunch). Saw a male, tall, black trench coat, 5'7", black Levis, unknown shoes, was wearing mask! Suspect #2 tall, male, black trench coat, black hat, red [bitl?] with a large "B" on the front. Wearing black pants, 2nd party - 6'3" - 6'4". (11k, p.1062)

"At the time, Opfer believed the taller person in the black trench coat who was with the shooter was [redacted] since [redacted] is about the same height and build and always wears a black trench coat and a black beret." (11k, p.1064)

10. Mindy Pollock [11k, p.10010]

Pollock saw 2 suspects matching Harris & Klebold's descriptions. Pollock could not identify either suspect, but had seen the taller suspect around school.

Pollock was added to this list for two reasons. First, she described the shooter matching Harris' description as having a "little bit of a gut." Harris was carrying bombs and explosive devices and ammunition around his waist and on the webbing strapped to his body. Multiple witnesses reported Harris looking "fat around the middle" even before the shooting began.

The second reason Pollock was added to this list is because 6 days after her initial interview that took place on the scene, she identified the suspect matching Klebold's description as [redacted].

Pollock initially could not identify the shooter she saw and told investigators she recognized him, but didn't know his name. If Pollock came up with a name 6 days later, she was clearly influenced by others who told her [redacted] was a shooter.

Furthermore, Pollock initially told investigators she recognized the taller gunman as either a junior or senior at Columbine. Six days later when she magically came up with a name, her story changed and she said she had not seen the suspect since last year.

This is a clear case of false memory. Pollock saw Klebold, but didn't know his name and reported having seen him around school because she saw Klebold around school. After someone else told her [redacted] was a shooter (likely Robert Perry), Pollock's story changed and she claims she hasn't seen the suspect since the previous year, which matches the fact that Perry was no longer a student. Her entire memory changed based on someone else telling her Perry was the shooter. This is textbook classic false memory.

Pollock's story changes a second time when investigators ask her if she's sure [redacted] was a shooter. Pollock told investigators she had seen [redacted] "several times" at school, but not since her freshman year - two years prior (she previously stated she had not seen him in the last year, and prior to that said she saw him around school).

Finally, p.1098 reveals why Pollock identified [redacted] as a shooter. Pollock told investigators that she looked at Klebold's school photo in her yearbook and noticed he had short hair. The shooter she saw had long hair, therefore she concluded that [redacted] was the shooter she saw. This does not qualify as suspect identification.

From Pollock's interview:

"Pollock stated that she and two friends were walking South from the cafeteria towards one of the friends' cars... She stated they heard some sounds like firecrackers and she looked back towards the school and saw a white male in a long black trench coat carrying a silver handgun running up and down the stairs outside of the school on the Southwest corner. Pollock stated she saw a white male on the ledge with a long gun near the other male who was running up and down the stairs."

"She stated he was wearing a black trench coat, white male, brown or black greasy hair, with pointy features on his face, about 6'02", skinny or lanky. She stated she had seen him before in the school and she thought he was either a junior or senior, but she didn't know what his name was. I asked what the male with the long gun looked like and she stated he was wearing what appeared to be black dress pants, a white dress shirt, black suspenders, had brown short hair, white male, approximately 5'08" and average weight. I asked what average weight meant and she stated he looked like he had a little bit of a gut." (11k, p.10011)

"Pollock stated she recognized the lower, #1 gunman as [redacted]. She stated on a scale of 1-10, (1) being uncertain and (10) being positive she was (8-9) it was [redacted]. She stated she knows [redacted] from last year and does not remember seeing him since."

Physical description of gunman #1: "He had on a black trench coat that extended to between his knees and his ankles made of a cloth type material. The coat was open and had no patches. He had on a black baseball hat in the backward position. His face was long and his nose was pointed. He looked like a giant rat. He had a light complexion and a mustache. He had a black shirt."

Physical description of gunman #2: "Looser fitting black pants and black boots. White dress-type shirt with front buttons. Red hat on backwards. Holding a long black gun." (11k, pp.1095-1096)

"Pollock told me that she had seen [redacted] several times at Columbine High School during her freshman year (Pollock is currently a junior). Pollock has not seen [redacted] since her freshman year. Pollock stated that she has never seen Dylan Klebold before, with the exception of media photos after the shootings. Pollock stated that a couple of days after the shootings, after learning through the media that Dylan Klebold was involved, she looked at his school photo in her school yearbook. Pollock noted that in the photo Klebold had short hair; the gunman she saw had long hair. Based on Klebold's yearbook photo, Pollock concluded that [redacted] was the shooter she saw." (11k, p.1098)

11. Monica Schuster [11k, pp.1138-1145; 10k pp.19470-19472]

Schuster was with Robyn Anderson away from campus for lunch and returned to Columbine at 11:25 a.m.

Schuster saw 1 gunman matching Harris' description (wearing a white t-shirt) holding a rifle through the library window, but she could not identify the suspect. However, in a follow-up interview,

Schuster claims she knew the gunman was Dylan Klebold.

Schuster was removed from the list because the inability to identify a suspect doesn't, by itself, constitute support for a third shooter.

From Schuster's interview:

"Anderson pulled into senior parking lot and heard gunfire. They stayed in parking lot until 3:00 P.M. Schuster saw gunman but did not believe it was Harris or Klebold." (11k, p.19470)

12. Nate Dykeman [11k, pp.10693-10715]

Dykeman only saw Eric Harris the day of the shooting. Dykeman saw Harris walking from the junior parking lot towards the South cafeteria doors carrying a small, black bag.

Dykeman was added to this list because he allegedly told investigators there were 2 additional shooters in the school with handguns that bailed. This is not anywhere in Dykeman's interview and the origin of this claim is unknown.

13. Pam Wood [No interview available]

Wood was not a student at Columbine and wasn't at the school during the incident. No interview with Wood has been made available to the public.

Wood was added to this list because she allegedly "Got call at work in Penny's at South West Plaza from students trapped in school. One saw 6 trench coats and that all were shooting handguns."

The source of this claim is cited as coming from page 8902, but that page is in the middle of the interview conducted with Denver Police officer James Moneghan regarding his involvement and the discharge of his weapon pertaining to the incident at Columbine High School.

14. Patrick McDuffee [11k, pp.10783-10795]

McDuffee graduated from Columbine High School the year before the incident. He was was home the day of the shooting and did not identify any suspects.

His girlfriend, Jessica Rusch, described the suspect she saw and McDuffee told her it sounded like [redacted] based on the description. (11k, p.10789) This doesn't qualify as suspect identification.

McDuffee also said he "felt" there were 4 or 5 people involved in the shooting because the TCM often joked about bombing and shooting up the school. Feelings don't qualify as suspect identification, either. Furthermore, McDuffee acknowledges he was only speculating about who might have been involved in the shooting and had no direct knowledge.

McDuffee was added to this list because he told investigators he thought 4 or 5, maybe 6 people were involved and he gave investigators details regarding exactly who he thought helped with specific tasks like building bombs, storing weapons, and transporting bombs to the school. This information was not based on fact, but speculation. (11k, pp.10786-10787)

McDuffee's report to investigators contains verifiably incorrect information that was based on his "feelings" and not first hand knowledge. For example, McDuffee said Klebold bought a shotgun on his 18th birthday from K-Mart or Walmart, but Klebold was 17 when he died and his birthday was in September. (11k, p.10790)

McDuffee never told investigators he knew 6 people were involved in the attack. When investigators asked McDuffee about who in the TCM group could have planned the attack, he named 6 redacted people he believed were capable. These are leads, not suspect identifications. (11k, p.10792)

From McDuffee's interview:

"Report indicated [redacted] helped with the planning of the attack. McDuffee stated this was speculation on his part and he only meant [redacted] possible [sic] had helped."

"Report indicated Dylan Klebold was at the school, had a handgun, baton, knife, and built bombs like pipe bombs and cocktail bombs. McDuffee did not see Klebold at the school, but knew he had a handgun and a baton. He had only heard that Klebold built bombs."

"Report indicated [redacted] was at the school, by the library, with a gun, and he has many types of guns. McDuffee stated he had seen [redacted] during the evening. [redacted] was wearing a white football jersey with the word Columbine across the chest. This was unusual as [redacted] never played football and had not been at the school for two years. [redacted] had talked about having a street sweeper shotgun in 1997-98. McDuffee indicated it was a shotgun with the barrel sawed off and flattened."

"Report indicated [redacted] helped build bombs and tested them at his house. McDuffee stated he had seen [redacted] with small PVC pipe bombs that [redacted] detonated in his backyard, destroying trash cans. The statement about [redacted] helping build bombs for the attack was speculation."

"Report indicated [redacted] was part of the planning. McDuffee stated this was speculation."

"Report indicated [redacted] was at the school with an automatic gun, downstairs by the door, shooting outside. McDuffee stated that he was told by Brenton Hooker that [redacted] was in the school by the double doors to the cafeteria." (11k, p.10794)

15. Rusty Shyler [No interview available]

Shyler was added to this list because he allegedly partially saw the face of a tall suspect and thought, based upon his dress and size, that it may have been [redacted].

The source of this claim is cited as coming from page 5464, but that's part of Christopher Holliday's interview and Holliday never mentions Rusty Shyler. It's unclear where this claim came from since there is no interview released to the public with a Rusty, a Rusty Shyler or anyone with the last name matching or close to 'Shyler'.

16. Timothy Kastle [11k, pp.3415-3422]

Kastle was crawling through the ceiling when he saw a suspect poke his head up through the ceiling and point a gun at him. This was his only observation/interaction with suspects that day. Kastle was added to this list because he told investigators he heard the suspects were Harris, Klebold, and [redacted], however, this was Kastle repeating hearsay and was not his experience.

From Kastle's interview:

"About a half hour later they boosted me into the ceiling and the rest stayed put. I climbed across the ceiling to the other side. It took me about 5 minutes to get across the room. Then from the other side I saw someone point a gun at me and I fell through the ceiling and ran to a cop car.

As far as I know the suspects are Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris, [redacted] and I think there might have been two others." (11k, p.3416)

"As Kastle reached the area of the West wall, he looked back to the area over the bathroom in the kitchen area. As he did, he observed a subject in that area, whose head was just above the ceiling area. Kastle said that the subject was pointing what he believed was a shotgun at him. He advised that he based this on the manner in which the subject pointed the gun at him. Kastle stated that it was dark, and he could not see the subject well. He described the subject as having shoulder-length dark hair. Kastle stated that he believed that the subject was Dylan Klebold. he said he based this on the fact that the subject had not shot him, as Kastle advised he is a friend of Klebold's. Kastle stated that the hair he described did not fit Klebold, and nothing about what he observed of the subject led him to his conclusion that the subject could be Klebold." (11k, p.3418)

Revised list of testimony that could support a third suspect (37)

Note that not every witness in this list is a definite match for support of a third suspect. Each witness testimony needs to be examined individually because some of them are more inconclusive than others. For example, some of the suspect descriptions mostly match Harris or Klebold, some testimonies include potential transference or false memory. Some, however, strongly support the case for a third suspect.

There are witnesses on this list who reported second-hand information, but in this case, it was a direct report of what rescued students were saying as opposed to someone repeating rumors they heard.

First name	Last name	Location	Interview page #
Ann Marie	Hochhalter	Other Injured	[11k, pp.215-216]
Ashley	Egeland	Class Area	[11k, pp.5247-5268]
Bijen	Monte	Outside	[11k, pp.1014-1026]
Brenton	Hooker	Math	[11k, pp.1464-1467]
Cara	Sander	Outside	[11k, pp.1121-1124]
Chris	Wisher	Outside	[11k, pp.1261]
Courtney	Haulman	Outside	[11k, pp.839-844]
Dick	Strange	Outside	[11k, pp.1193-1195]
Erik	Sunde	Cafe	[11k, pp.4572-4578]
Erin	Walton	Science	[11k, pp.2241-2248]
Jake	Apodaca	Outside	[11k, pp.652-657]
Jason	Adams	Non-Columbine	[11k, pp.7420-7423]
Jason	Brehm	Outside	[11k, pp.718-722]
Jay	Gallantine	Cafe	[11k, pp.3085-3091]
Jennifer	Smull	Science	[11k, pp.2182-2192]
Jennifer	Tindall	Outside	[11k, pp.1224-1237]
John	Spahlinger	Outside	[11k, pp.1175-1178]
John	Vandemark	Science	[11k, pp.2216-2223]
Jonathan	Cole	Outside	[11k, pp.748-753]
Jordan	Grimm	Hallway	[11k, pp.5700-5702]
Jordan	Grimm	Hallway	[10k, pp.22432-22433]
Josh	Brinkley	Cafe	[11k, pp.2527-2530]
Joshua	Lapp	Library	[11k, pp.476-490]
Julie	Thomas		[ASCO p.808]
Katelyn	Place	Cafe	[11k, pp.4081-4088]
Katelyn	Place	Cafe	[El Paso, pp.21-285]
Lacey	Hohn	Cafe	[11k, pp.3341-3346]
Lacey	Hohn	Cafe	[El Paso pp.1-186]
Lacey	Smith	Cafe	[11k, pp.4464-4475]
Leigh Ann	Clark	Cafe	[11k, pp.2722-2728]
Leiha	Murphy	Cafe	[11k, pp.3827-3840]
Mark	Hengel	Hallway	[11k, pp.5898-5903]
Matt	Katzenmeier	Cafe	[11k, pp.3423-3425]
Melissa	Chavez	Agency Reports	[11k, p.9023]
Patrick	Vassar	Cafe	[11k, pp.4690-4694]
Richard	Olejniczak		[no interview available]
Ryan	Ezzie	Cafe	[11k, pp.2966-2967]
Ryan	Ezzie	Cafe	[10k, pp.20612-20613]
Sara	Houy	Library	[11k, pp.379-392]
Tiffany	Lien	Outside	[11k, pp.962-975]
William	Arapkiles	Outside	[11k, pp.658-661]

1. Ann Marie Hochhalter [11k, pp.215-216]

Hochhalter was at the bottom of the stairs by the cafeteria when she was reportedly shot by Harris. Was it really Harris? She described seeing two suspects wearing trench coats at a time when Harris had already dropped his coat at the top of the stairs. Another witness, Katelyn Place, described watching a student drag Hochhalter "away from Robert [Perry]."

There are several witnesses who describe seeing two tall suspects, both wearing black trench coats and wearing all black, down by the cafeteria where Hochhalter was shot.

From Hochhalter's interview:

"...she observed two gunmen. The first gunman she described as a white male, black hair, brown eyes, black hat and boots, black cargo pants, black shirt, black trench coat, carrying a black vinyl duffel bag, round in shape and about two and a half feet long, with a black gun.

Number two gunman was a white male, with a shotgun, carrying a duffel bag, wearing all black to include a black trench coat."

"Hochhalter said at about this time they began to run to the cafeteria when gunman two shot her." (11k, p.216)

2. Katelyn Place [11k, pp.4081-4088; EP, 21-285]

Place originally identified the 1 gunman she saw as [redacted] (Robert Perry). Place admitted that she might have identified Perry simply because she associated him with a trench coat. However, Place describes watching another student drag Hochhalter "away from Robert [Perry]." Place wasn't the only witness to identify Perry in that area wearing a black trench coat and holding a gun.

From Place's interview:

"Place stated she had met Dylan Klebold less than five times and knew who he was. Place stated she was much more familiar with Perry due to the fact that he had been in a class with her, in which she saw him almost every day. Place advised it was possible that she identified Perry as being the gunman due to the fact that she associated the trench coat to a familiar person. Place stated she would not be able to testify in court that Perry was the individual standing outside the cafeteria holding the gun and shooting in the direction of Ann Marie Hochhalter." (11k, p.4087)

3. Ashley Egeland [11k, pp.5247-5268]

From Egeland's interview:

"At this time Ashley stated that she observed two male subjects coming around the corner of the library hall into the North hall. Ashley advised that both subjects were armed. According to Ashley as soon as both subjects saw her and "Lacey" they started shooting at them. Ashley said that they both ran back down the gym hall and into the gym." (11k, p.5248)

"Ashley identified the shooters as Eric Harris and [redacted]. According to Ashley, [redacted] was dressed in a white shirt with a black trench coat over it. She said that Morris was armed with a hand gun while Harris was armed with a shotgun. Ashley said that she was not sure about [redacted]'s identity until her sister Heather showed her a Columbine yearbook and she saw his picture in the book. Ashley is sure the two shooters she observed were Eric Harris and [redacted]." (11k, p.5249)

4. Bijen Monte [11k, pp.1014-1026]

From Monte's interview:

"MONTE stated she was certain it was [redacted] standing over the two kids (Lance Kirklin and Daniel Rohrbough). She stated on a scale of 1-10, 1 being uncertain and 10 being positive she was 8+1/2-9 it was he."

"She stated [redacted] had a gun hanging from his neck on some type of strap. The gun was all black and approximately 15-18 inches long. She stated it looked like a machine gun, and there was no duct tape on it. She stated that it was the only gun she saw him with and it was in his right hand."

"The following is a physical description of the man she saw with a gun:

He had on a black trench coat that extended to between his knees and his ankles.

He had on a black baseball hat in the backward position.

His face was long and his neck was long.

He had a narrow chin.

His teeth were crooked and he had an obvious overbite.

His complexion had lots of acne, there were indentations like pieces were cut out, and his face was white in color with some redness." (11k, pp.1018-1019)

5. Brenton Hooker [11k, pp.1464-1467]

From Hooker's interview:

"B. Hooker said he observed a tall kid with black trench coat and a baseball cap (on backwards) with curly hair and a half-mask on exit the same East doors."

"B. Hooker said he could not identify the shooter, but felt it might be an associate named [redacted]." (11k, p.1465)

"Upon contacting Brenton, he stated that he made a mistake in his identification of [redacted]... Brenton stated that he, in fact, believes that the individual he saw was Dylan Klebold, at which time I showed him still photographs numbers 44, 47, 52, and 53, those photos were recovered from the videotape taken of the cafeteria on the incident date. Once Brenton was shown the photographs, he immediately identified Dylan Klebold as the shooter he saw at Columbine High School." (11k, p.1467)

We know that [redacted] is Robert Perry, because in the 10k report on page 16397, Perry's name has not been redacted from Hooker's interview.

From Hooker's 10k interview:

"When HOOKER reached the intersection of Pierce and West Fair Drive, he turned around and observed an individual he thought was ROBERT PERRY (ex-student of Columbine High School) standing outside the door just to the North of the main entrance shooting a pistol in his direction and at a group of students and ambulances parked at the intersection of Pierce and West Fair Drive. HOOKER saw dust kick up near the edge of Pierce Street from the gunshots and he continued to run East on West Fair Drive for a short distance then he turned around and looked back at the school and could no longer see the individual."

"HOOKER described the individual he thought was PERRY as 6'8"-6'11" in height, very skinny, tight black pants, black trench coat (knee length), sunglasses, black mask covering mouth and nose. HOOKER advised he spoke with another student whom he identified as TERRY LAWSON who stated he had seen PERRY in the school commons are earlier that day on April 20, 1999." (11k, p.16397)

What's interesting is that on page 16398, the CBI officer made a note that it would have been difficult to positively identify anyone from where Hooker was when he saw the suspect. I've not come across any other instance where a note like this is made - not even in other interviews that identify Perry from a distance.

"On April 22, 1999, HOOKER returned to the school site with Agents GRIFFITH and MUNDINE and showed them exactly the position of the shooter and his location when he saw the shooter. This location was approximately 200 yards East of the shooter's location outside the door. From this position it would be difficult to positively identify anyone, especially while being shot at." (11k, p.16398)

6. Cara Sander [11k, pp.1121-1124]

Sander saw two suspects, one matching Eric Harris' description and the other suspect description only matched Klebold's appearance in terms of height, weapon, and trench coat.

Sander looked through a yearbook to find the suspect she saw and picked out a photo of [redacted]. That was the first time she saw [redacted]'s photo and the first time she learned his name. (11k, p.1132)

The photo Sander found in the yearbook matched the description she gave to investigators. Sander picked [redacted]'s photo out of the 1998 Columbine yearbook in two locations - a regular student photo and she also found him in the Trench Coat Mafia group photo. Although the name has been redacted, it's believed that Sander identified Brian Sargent since he is in the Trench Coat Mafia group photo and matches Sander's description.

From Sander's interview:

"She described the gunman as a white male with a very full face, "pudgy, overweight." The gunman had dark hair, possibly 1 1/2" long. He had dark eyes and dark thick bushy eyebrows." (11k, pp.1122-1123)

"Sander stated there was a white male standing a few feet from the gunman. She stated the white male had no facial hair, was wearing a white t-shirt, short sleeved, possibly with some red and black writing on the front." (11k, p.1123)

"...she saw the pictures of the two deceased suspects, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, on the TV. She stated neither of these two suspects were the gunman she observed at the top of the stairway holding the gun that she saw after she exited the cafeteria. Sander stated the suspect she saw had a fuller face with darker eyes, and thick dark eyebrows. Sander looked over numerous photos, and then pointed to a picture and said, "that looks like him." The person in the photo that Sander pointed at was [redacted]."

"[redacted]'s photo shows him to be a more heavy set individual with a round face, short dark hair, and eyebrows that are dark and could possibly be considered bushy." (11k, pp.1124-1125)

7. Chris Wisher [11k, pp.1261]

Wisher only saw two suspects. The first suspect matched Klebold's description, but Wisher could not identify him. Wisher told investigators he didn't recognize the person, but thought it might be [redacted], a Trench Coat Mafia member, who was about the same height and build.

Wisher did not actually identify [redacted], he told investigators it was his "first impression based on association that he identified [redacted]." That does not qualify as suspect identification. Wisher's testimony further confirms this, "Wisher stated he only got a partial look at both gunmen and could not identify either person by name. Wisher stated he was only able to give a clothing and physical description of the individuals.

When shown photographs of Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold, Wisher positively identified both as the individuals he saw and confirmed that the photo of Eric Harris was the individual he observed throwing bombs on the roof of the school. (11k, p.1266)

Did Wisher see three suspects at once? It's unlikely. Wisher only mentions two suspects in his initial testimony - one suspect in a black trench coat and the other in a white t-shirt. Wisher only adds in a third suspect in his follow-up interview where he says he saw two suspects in black trench coats and one suspect in a white t-shirt.

Since early testimony is generally more reliable, it's unlikely that Wisher saw three suspects. However, like many others, Wisher reported seeing the person in the white t-shirt throwing bombs wearing blue jeans. Although he identified this suspect as Harris, it's curious that he, along with many others, saw this person wearing jeans. Wisher was somewhere between 50-100 yards away when he witnessed this.

From Wisher's interview:

Original testimony: "About 50 yards away, outside on the West side of the cafeteria, he saw a tall white male, dressed all in black, with a black trench coat, and what he thinks was a black hat and dark sunglasses. At time time, he did not recognize this person, but thought it might be [redacted], a member of the Trench Coat Mafia who is about the same height and build." (11k, p.1263)

"Wisher also saw a white male dressed in a white short-sleeved tee shirt and blue jeans, kneeling with his back to him... Wisher saw this perosn throw an object one-handed on top of the cafeteria/library roof. It appeared metallic with sunlight glinting off of it, and one to two seconds after landing it exploded with a loud bang, a flash of fire, and a pall of smoke." (11k, p.1264)

Revised testimony: "Me and my friends were about 100 yards away from the people. There were 3 of them, 2 wearing trench coats & 1 wearing a white shirt... We got up & saw the kid in the white throw what looked like grenades on the roof." (11k, p.1262)

8. Courtney Haulman [11k, pp.839-844]

Haulman saw three males in black trench coats standing near the West entrance to the school at the top of the stairs where the shooting began.

From Haulman's interview:

"There was three guys, the guy I remember most was the main guy. He's over 6 feet tall and has long curly dark-colored hair. He was wearing a black trench coat. His name is [redacted]." (11k, p.840)

"Haulman stated that she observed three males in black trench coats standing next to the stairs which lead [sic] to the West entrance of the school. Haulman described gunman number one as a white male, approximately 17 yoa, 6'3", medium build, long curly dark hair, wearing a black trench coat, dark colored pants, carrying a long gun (unknown color).

Haulman described gunman number two as a white male, 16 to 17 yoa, shorter than gunman number one, medium build, no hat, no mask, dark clothing, to include black trench coat, with grenade type things hanging on his shirt, dark in color.

Haulman described perceived suspect number three as a white male with a black trench coat, white shirt, carrying something odd in shape (unable to describe). Haulman stated that she recognized gunman one and two as individuals she had seen in school before." (11k, p.841)

"Haulman stated that while standing outside on the Southwest corner of the cafeteria, peeking around the corner, she observed gunman number one and two standing in close proximity of each other and that the third gunman was standing above them on the stairs." (11k, p.842)

"...she looked around the corner and observed what she thought was two persons with weapons and a third person with them possibly talking to them or yelling at them and that she could not tell if the third party had a weapon... Haulman was shown photos #46, 48, 51, and 54 and she was unable to identify anyone in the photos and did not know if these were the same persons she had seen doing the shooting." (11k, p.844)

9. Dick Strange [11k, pp.1193-1195]

Strange was a mechanic working for the Foothills Park and Recreation District and was with a client at Clement Park when the incident began. While he reported seeing "four to five" people in trench coats, he saw only one suspect with a weapon that matched Harris' description.

Strange reported seeing "four to five" individuals in black trench coats standing near the Columbine High School gym at 11:45 a.m. Strange says he then saw the individuals walk toward the cafeteria side of the school and he drove along a bike path toward the school and lost sight of the people in trench coats.

When he got to a small structure near the baseball field, he said he saw an individual dressed in a trench coat by the Southwest entrance who then dropped his coat, pulled out two guns, and started firing at students around the soccer field.

The suspect described by Strange matches Harris, since Harris dropped his coat in front of the Southwest entrance of the school and then began firing at kids on the soccer field. However, his timing might be a little bit off.

From Strange's interview:

"It was there at approximately 11:45 am that STRANGE first observed four to five individuals, all dressed in black trench coats, standing alongside CHS in the vicinity of the gymnasium... STRANGE then observed these individuals walk Southwest along the high school, heading from the gym towards the cafeteria side of the school."

"As the two men reached the small structure located near the outfield fence of the Southernmost CHS baseball field, STRANGE began hearing what he thought was possibly firecrackers going off. He then observed one individual, dressed in a trench coat, standing in front of the Southwest entrance of CHS, the one with the big glass doors. STRANGE saw this person drop his coat, pull out two guns and begin firing at students socializing in and around the soccer and football field areas. STRANGE also heard explosions going off at this time." (11k, p.1194)

10. Erik Sunde [11k, pp.4572-4578]

Sunde reported seeing two gunmen with sawed off shotguns outside the cafeteria and one gunman seemed to be inside - one gunman was wearing a ski mask and he couldn't see the other one's face. He ran upstairs and saw a third person in a black trench coat holding his arms in a position that looked like he was holding a gun. However, Sunde didn't see a gun.

From Sunde's interview:

"Erik stated that as he was near the stairs he looked back over his shoulder quickly and saw two guys in black trench coats near the West cafeteria window. He stated one looked very close, almost possibly inside the cafeteria. He stated they both had sawed off shotguns and had on the long, black coats. He stated they were randomly shooting the area. Erik stated that one of the two had a black ski mask on. Erik stated that he could not see the other's face."

"Erik continued up the stairs and as he turned East at the top of the stairs he looked back over his shoulder and looked quickly to the West toward the library entrance door. He saw a guy wearing a long, black coat and a raggedy black hat standing near the library doors. Erik stated that this guy had his arms held in a position which made him think that this guy had a gun in his hand. He stated the arm and hand were up and stretched out. Erik stated he did not see a gun. Erik stated he heard shots being fired which they sounded like they coming [sic] from the second floor." (11k, p.4575)

11. Erin Walton [11k, pp.2241-2248]

Walton was in the science room Dave Sanders was brought into after he was shot. Through the window she saw two shooters mostly matching Harris and Klebold's descriptions, but only saw them from the back and got a view of the sides of their faces. She could not identify either suspect.

However, Walton has been kept on this list because she described the suspect as older and going bald. Although, it should be noted that Harris had a receding hairline that made him look like he was going bald.

From Walton's interview:

"We saw two guys standing in the doorway, backs to us. Heard them fire 2-3 shots don't know where (past towards the science teacher's room) then they left. One of the guys was tall, long black hair, wearing all black. The other one had short brown hair (like he was going bald). He looked like he was in his late 30s." (11k, p.2242)

"Walton saw their backs and sides of their face. Both people were standing together. They fired three to four shots at the science teacher's door."

"Walton gave the following description:

Suspect #1: Taller, long black hair, wearing all black. Had a black hat, with the bill turned backwards. He was wearing a black t-shirt with writing on the back. She does not remember the words. The letters were red, white, and blue in color. Walton did not see this person's face.

Per Walton, he is the only person who did any shooting. She said she saw a shotgun. His left head [hand] was extended. At one point, the person held the gun up, that is [sic] Walton saw the gun.

"Suspect #2: Walton saw the side of his face. He was wearing a white t-shirt, real short blond hair. Walton stated he was just standing there with the other person. Walton did not see a gun." (11k, p.2244)

12. Jennifer Smull [11k, pp.2182-2192]

Smull saw 2 suspects matching Klebold and Harris' descriptions. When shown a photo lineup, Smull immediately identified Dylan Klebold, but could not identify the other suspect as Eric Harris.

Like Erin Walton, Smull described a suspect that matches Harris' description, except she said he looked like he was in his 30s and going bald. It's possible this was someone other than Harris.

From Smull's interview:

"I saw a senior standing outside our classroom door. I knew he was the shooter. Then I saw an adult (blonde, short, spiky hair) (thought he was in 30s). I thought he was a cop until he held up a sawed off shotgun. Then he and the senior tried to break into the room where a shot teacher went. When they couldn't get in they ran away shooting down the hall once or twice." (11k, p.2183)

"She said that between 11:45am and noon, she looked into the hallway and saw Dylan in the hallway, and another white male... Ms. Smull was asked to describe Dylan and she said he was wearing a black t-shirt with writing on it, (she didn't know what it said) and a black hat on backwards with writing on it and that he had long curly hair. She said that the person with Dylan appeared to be older, had short blond hair, like a buzz cut, and was wearing a white t-shirt, tight fit with no pocket, and was carrying a tan-colored sawed off shotgun." (11k, p.2185)

13. Jason Adams [11k, pp.7420-7423]

Adams was a construction supervisor who reported that his subcontractors reported seeing a black BMW followed by a small tan car "break through the cul-de-sac" and then leave heading toward Columbine High. Five minutes later, they heard loud bangs coming from Columbine High School.

This timing is a bit suspicious because we know Klebold was barreling through the parking lot around 11:15 a.m. and if he was followed by a tan car, was that tan car driven by a third suspect?

14. Jake Apodaca [11k, pp.652-657]

Apodaca saw the "white t-shirt bomber" in blue jeans and the trench coated suspect wearing a mask and beret.

From Apodaca's interview:

"He heard what sounded like a string of firecrackers going off, and turned towards the school and saw two white males crouching along the Northwest corner of the cafeteria."

"One person was dressed in a white short-sleeved tee shirt and blue jeans, with no weapon visible. The other person was dressed in all black, black trousers, black shirt, black trench coat, a black beret, and was wearing what appeared to be a black mask. He did not recognize either of these individuals since one had on a mask and the person in the white tee shirt because was [sic] crouched down with his back to him."

"Apodaca saw the person in the white tee shirt throw an object about the size of a soda can on top of the library. This object appeared metallic, since it looked silver in the sunlight. One or two seconds after landing on the roof, it exploded with a loud boom, a flash of fire, and puff of smoke. He then threw a second object on the roof which also exploded."

"After the second device exploded, the person dressed in the black trench coat walked West from the Northwest side of the cafeteria and shot at three students near the Southwest corner of the cafeteria, with what Apodaca believes was a shotgun." (11k, pp.656-657)

15. Jason Brehm [11k, pp.718-722]

Brehm saw 1 suspect matching Dylan Klebold's description. However, he couldn't identify the suspect and told investigators the suspect had a round face. The actions taken by the suspect Brehm saw matched Dylan Klebold's known actions at that time (walking up and down the stairs shooting). However, he didn't identify the suspect as Klebold. Was this Brian Sargent?

From Brehm's interview:

"...he observed a party wearing a trench coat and black hat turned around backwards who was learning against a green post that was anchoring a tree... John stated that the person was a little shorter than himself, John is 5'11" or 6', and that he was wearing a black pair of boots that had black canvas between the sole and upper part and he noticed that one of the boots had the pant leg tucked into the boot which he thought strange."

"Det. Demmel showed Jason photographs of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at that time with Jason reporting that the party he observed wearing the trench coat had a very round face and was neither Harris or Klebold... Jason added that the party had a black nylon bag with straps at his feet."

"While playing Jason heard what he thought sounded like a string of firecrackers going off and saw smoke coming up from next to the guy in the trench coat. He stated that the person in the trench coat was the same party that he had observed when he walked out of the door. Jason stated that the guy in the trench coat was alone. The party wearing the trench coat began shooting randomly as he walked down the stairs, got to the bottom, then turned around and walked back up the stairs. He then started shooting at a student that Jason knew as Denny Rowe [Danny Rohrbough]." (11k, pp.719-720)

16. Jennifer Tindall [11k, pp.1224-1237]

Tindall saw 2 suspects she could not identify. She never saw their faces, but insisted the 2 suspects she saw were not Harris or Klebold.

Tindall was added to this list because she wasn't convinced the suspects she saw were Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris. However, she never saw either of their faces. Tindall also picked out [redacted] from a photo lineup and said [redacted] had a similar build to the suspect she saw. This sounds like Perry, but she never saw any faces and couldn't identify the suspects she saw.

From Tindall's interview:

"She described him as a thin white male with brown hair, wearing a white short sleeved t-shirt, and tan pants. She then saw the second suspect run up the steps and stand next to the suspect in the white t-shirt. She described the him [sic] as a heavy set male, with black hair that was possibly pulled back into a tail, wearing a long black trench coat that was buttoned up."

"Tindall saw the male in the white t-shirt shooting a long gun toward the parking lot and commons area, but she never saw the other suspect shoot. She did not get a look at the suspects' faces, but insisted that neither suspect she saw was Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold."

"I showed Jennifer Tindall a photo lineup containing a photograph of [redacted]. Tindall picked out [redacted]'s photograph as possibly being the male in the black trench coat. I asked Tindall how she was able to pick out [redacted]'s photograph if she did not see the suspect's faces. She said that his build looked similar to the male in the black trench coat. Realizing that you cannot see a person's build in a photo lineup, I concluded that Tindall could not positively identify [redacted] as one of the shooters." (11k, p.1226)

17. Jay Gallantine [11k, pp.3085-3091]

Gallentine had just come downstairs after reportedly seeing a single suspect matching Klebold's description upstairs. We know Klebold went upstairs first, before Harris. However, his interviews contain two different accounts - the account in his own handwriting says he saw a suspect with a bulletproof shield, while the other interview is a quick, 1-sentence summary and says he never saw a gunman. This is a major red flag.

It should be noted that you can see Gallantine on the CCTV cafeteria tape going up and down the stairs a couple of times, but it's unclear what he's running from. Was he running from explosions? Gunfire? Suspects? His actions on the CCTV tape match his handwritten account of encountering a suspect by the library and running back down the stairs.

In one interview, Gallentine told investigators he saw a gunman come around the corner at the top of the stairs from the library who was tall, dressed in black, with a bulletproof shield, wearing a long coat with something over. This suspect matches Klebold's description, except for the bulletproof shield.

However, Gallentine was evacuated from the school with his fellow custodian, Jon Curtis. The investigator who interviewed Curtis contacted Gallentine and Gallentine told that investigator he did not see any gunmen nor did he witness anyone being shot or injured. (11k, p.2787)

From Gallantine's interview (in his own handwriting):

"A gunman came around corner (at top of stairs from library direction); tall, dressed in black w/bulletproof shield; long coat w/something over; I went down stairs toward kitchen..."

"I ran back into kitchen; I got some students out side door; all this time hearing shots all around and above me..."

"I did not see any body shot. I came in contact w/shooter saw him in long trench coat with a white vest on & a grenade launcher/gun in library hall. (11k, pp.3086-3087)

Gallantine's story according to IO Gary Muse:

"I also spoke with Gallantine, and he told me that he did not see the gunmen, nor did he witness anyone being shot or injured."

18. John Spahlinger [11k, pp.1175-1178]

Spahlinger did not see any suspects and was not on campus when the shooting happened. He was a maintenance worker from Clement Park who sheltered escaping students. However, he told investigators that a majority of the students he sheltered told him there was a Trench Coat Mafia gang shooting at Columbine and there were 4 shooters.

Spahlinger denied seeing five people exit a black vehicle while working in the park.

From Spahlinger's interview:

"Spahlinger stated that he overheard the kids discussing how many gunmen they had seen or heard. Spahlinger stated that he heard stories from two gunmen to five gunmen, but really wasn't paying attention, that he was just checking their safety."

"Spahlinger stated he had no other information to report and that he did not know where someone got that he had witnessed five individuals exit a black vehicle while working in the park." (11k, p.1178)

19. John Vandemark [11k, pp.2216-2223]

Vandemark saw 2 suspects when looking out the window of his science classroom. He identified Klebold, but could not identify Harris. He didn't think the second suspect was the same person in the photos of Harris shown by the media. It should be noted that the photos shared by the media were taken more than a year before the shooting, at the beginning of junior year, and Harris looks completely different. However, like others, Vandemark thought the second shooter was older, making the suspect he saw questionable.

From Vandemark's interview:

"Vandemark explained, that due to the height of the windows in the doors of the classroom, he was not able to observe a complete description of both gunmen. He described the first one as being tall and skinny with long dark hair, wearing a black shirt, black pants, and a black hat, which was on backwards. He also saw that the individual had a small black "two handled" tun strapped around his neck... he had seen the photographs shown by the media and could positively identify the individual as Dylan Klebold."

"He described "the other kid" as being about one foot shorter than Dylan, with dark hair that was spiked on top with blonde tips. That individual was wearing a white t-shirt and had on what appeared to be a dark green backpack. He was unable to see what type of pants were worn but stated he also had a gun strapped around his neck that appeared to be similar as the one carried by Dylan. Vandemark stated he is not one hundred percent sure the individual was Eric Harris. He could not recall seeing Harris around school prior to the incident and did not think the gunman resembled the photograph shown by the media. He then stated it was possibly [sic] the individual was Harris and he just looked older than the photos." (11k, p.2222)

20. Jonathan Cole [11k, pp.748-753]

Cole saw 3 suspects; 2 in black trench coats with guns and one in a white t-shirt and blue jeans. He was unable to identify any of the suspects, but the suspects in trench coats matched Harris & Klebold's description.

According to Cole, the suspect in the white t-shirt and blue jeans exited the building right behind the two in trench coats and yelled to them "Go! Go!" Next, the two trench coated suspects pulled out guns - one pulled a shotgun and the other pulled a semi-automatic and they began shooting at students.

In addition to a suspect wearing a white t-shirt and blue jeans, he noted that one of the two suspects in trench coats was wearing a white t-shirt underneath his coat.

From Cole's interview:

"...he noticed two males in trench coats. One was wearing a ski mask with one large hole in it. Both were tall and believed that they had just come through the same doors that he had exited from. He did not recall them wearing hats. However, it was his perception that one had a white shirt on under his trench coat and one was wearing a black shirt and black or dark pants or jeans. He recalled that one had brown "puffy" hair."

"The two males walked to the corner of the building and stood off of the sidewalk looking down the steps that lead [sic] to the cafeteria and senior parking lot. He recalled seeing a third male who was wearing a white tee-shirt that had either short sleeves or no sleeves, blue jeans, exit the building behind the two males in trench coats to [sic] GO!! GO!!"

"He then observed the two males with trench coats draw weapons. One pulled a shotgun and one pulled a large semi-automatic gun. They began shooting at student [sic] below... he recalled looking back and seeing the male in the white shirt throw what he believed were bombs on the roof area of the library."

"He was not close enough to observed [sic] facial details of the males wearing the trench coats... he was about 73' to 75' away from the gunmen as they walked from the West doors to the position where they drew guns and began firing." (11k, pp.750-751)

21. Jordan Grimm [11k, pp.5700-5702; 10k, pp.22432-22433]

Grimm did not report seeing any suspects. He was in a conference room in the administration office when the shooting began. A couple minutes after hearing explosions he exited the building, got in a friend's car, and went to that friend's house.

However, there is a curious lead about Grimm in the 10k report provided by a parent.

"Received info from a parent, Debbie Dooley, that a student, Jordan (last name possible Grimm), observed Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold & 2 other students, [redacted] [reacted] at school together outside just before the incident began. Debbie Dooley was told this by Jordan's aunt, Leslie Black, who said Jordan is afraid to come forward & does not get along w/police."

22. Josh Brinkley [11k, pp.2527-2530]

Brinkley saw no suspects. He heard shots coming from behind him in the cafeteria when he ran up the stairs, and at the top of the stairs in the science hallway he heard gunshots that sounded like they were closer to him.

Who was shooting at Brinkley? Harris, Klebold, or one of the trench coated suspects seen standing by Rebel Corner?

From Brinkley's interview:

"Josh stated that he could hear "more shots coming from behind him" while he was "going up the stairs." Josh stated that when he "got to the top of the stairs, the shots seemed closer." He stated that the shots at the top of the stairs were more of a "rapid fire." He stated that he could tell by the sound that there were "two different guns." Again, Josh thought that there "may be a shooter at the top of the stairs" because the shots "seemed louder" and "different" when he got to the top. Josh stated that he did not feel that "noises" he was hearing were explosions. He stated that he did not see any shooter at the top of the stairs or in the hallway while exiting." (11k, p.2528)

23. Joshua Lapp [11k, pp.476-490]

Lapp was in the library and thought he heard shots being fired in other areas of the school while Harris and Klebold were both in the library.

From Lapp's interview:

"During the time the gunmen were in the library shooting, Lapp could hear what he thought was shooting in other parts of the school. Noises in the school tend to funnel to the library and Lapp could not tell where the other shooting was coming from. He also could feel at least five explosions from what he thought was below him. He thought the explosions were below him because they made the floor shake.

The explosions caused the library ceiling to shake and little particles of the ceiling to fall. Lapp and Bollerud were leaning against the inside of the table. With each explosion, the table would slide or move on the carpet. Some of the explosions felt closer than others." (11k, p.482)

24. Julie Thomas [ASCO p.808]

Thomas was a "passerby witness" who saw a brownish/golden truck parked on Polk Street at 7:55 a.m. with 5 teenagers, 3 wearing black trench coats around the car.

Unfortunately, we don't have the Arapahoe County 800-page report to verify this or quote directly from the report.

25. Lacey Smith [11k, pp.4464-4475]

From Smith's original interview:

"Smith described [redacted] (Perry) as always dressing the same every day, with a black "trench coat," and a black baseball cap turned backwards. The hat had a circular logo on it - possibly "the world," and white letters "NO SHIT!" Smith said [redacted] (Perry) wore his trench coat religiously.

On Tuesday, April 20, 1999, after class, Smith went out to her car to get her lunch money and she looked toward where she would customarily see [redacted] (Perry), and observed that he was not there. She thought that was unusual, but did not dwell upon it.

As Smith was sitting there, she observed [redacted] (Perry) enter through the pair of doors closest to where she was sitting. He came in through the door that was farther away from her, but she immediately recognized him and said, "[redacted] (Perry). He said "Hi," and continued to walk into the cafeteria.

Smith said she did not see [redacted] (Perry) with a gun, but she believes he had a gun concealed under his long coat. She states that when he stopped, facing toward the main area of the cafeteria, she heard what she described as "rapid fire" shooting coming from [redacted], and observed him "turning." She described him as "shooting from the hip." Smith said, "The noise was coming from him." She described the noise as "piercing" and "loud." It made her ears ring. She also heard glass breaking, but did not see where this was occurring. Smith could not tell how many shots she heard, but believed it was less than 15.

"As soon as Smith realized there was shooting, she immediately fled from the cafeteria through the doors by the store, where she was sitting. She believes she was among the first to escape from the building." (11k, pp.4465-4467)

Smith's follow-up interview seems to depict a drastic effort/intimidation to get her to change her story about seeing Perry shooting in the cafeteria.

"I explained what what she originally said about [redacted] (Perry) shooting was not supported by physical evidence such as shell casings in the area where he was seen, and she seemed to understand that he was probably not shooting."

"Smith recalls that his coat was open. When I asked her about his shirt, this time she said he had on a black or white t-shirt. During the prior interview, she described the shirt as white, and when I asked her about this, she said she thinks it was white." (11k, p.4469)

It should be noted that many other witnesses described a tall shooter in a trench coat and white t-shirt both outside long after Harris dropped his coat, and inside in the science hall, including with another trench coated shooter matching Klebold's description.

It should also be noted that investigators told Smith that, according to the videotapes, Perry was never in the cafeteria at that time. Smith told investigators that she "has a vivid imagination" and is unclear on exactly what she saw in the cafeteria during the shooting. This doesn't sound right. What witness would backtrack and say they "have a vivid imagination?" Most witnesses just say they must be mistaken, or something less drastic.

Investigators conducted two follow-up interviews with Smith, which is unusual.

From Smith's second and third interviews:

"...she recalls seeing a tall individual, described as a white male, about 6'5" - 6'6", wearing some type of a coat, walk into the school cafeteria, via Rebel Corner, and walk into the main commons area of the cafeteria. I asked Lacey if she was identifying this person as being [redacted] (Perry) at which time she told me that she didn't know who the individual was.

I asked Lacey if she was sure about that and Lacey stated she can't even tell me if the individual was [redacted] (Perry) or if he was wearing any type of a trench coat. I explained to Lacey that there is a discrepancy in the initial report she filed with Detective Jeff Kreutzer, where she specifically tells him that she saw [redacted] (Perry) walk into the cafeteria wearing a trench coat and in fact, she said hi to the individual.

Lacey told me that she doesn't recall exactly what she said to the person, but thinks she did say hi, greeting the party, but again, told me that she is not sure if this person was [redacted] (Perry)." (11k, p.4474)

"Lacey stated she could not identify [redacted] (Perry) as being involved in this incident, telling me that she does not even recall what the party was wearing..." (11k, p.4475)

26. Lacey Hohn [11k, pp.3341-3346; EP 1-186]

Hohn reported observing 1 suspect shoot someone with a shotgun outside of the cafeteria. After running down the hall, she saw 2 shooters and identified one as Dylan Klebold. However, she said the second shooter was also wearing a black coat.

Hohn told investigators that she believes Klebold "walked up the outside stairs from the cafeteria entrance to the West, North hall entrance, and from there he and the second shooter entered the school." (11k, p.3343)

From Hohn's interview:

"At about this same time she looked out the window and observed Dylan (Klebold) shoot a girl with a shotgun. Lacey stated she actually observed the shooting. She continued to say that the victim must have been on the ground as Dylan was leaning over when he fired the gun. This shooting occurred outside of the West cafeteria exit."

"Lacey stated that she went up the stairs in the Northeast corner of the auditorium to the upper (main) level of the auditorium. Once in the upper level she and a boy she knew as "Scott" started to leave by way of the Northeast auditorium door."

"As Scott opened the door they were fired upon from the West end of the hall. Lacey continued to say that they broke and ran across the hall and at this time she saw two shooters at the junction of the North main level hallway and the library hall. She reported that she recognized one of the shooters as Dylan (Klebold), but she did not get a good enough look at the second person to know who he was. She advised that the second was wearing a black coat, not a trench coat but more like a jacket, and black pants. She advised that Dylan was wearing a black trench coat."

"Lacey advised that she believes that Dylan walked up the outside stairs from the cafeteria entrance to the West, North hall entrance, and from there he and the second shooter entered the school." (11k, p.3343)

"Lacey looked through a series of photographic lineups and identified photo number three, in the display marked "#1" by this detective. She identified this person as Dylan. Lacey continued to look through the rest of the photographic displays but was not able to identify any of the other people displayed as the second person who had fired on her. She did say that the person depicted in photo number three was the same person who had shot the victim outside of the cafeteria. Lacey reported that she just did not get that clear of a look at the second shooter." (11k, p.3344)

27. Leigh Ann Clark [11k, pp.2722-2728]

Clark was added to this list because Trista Fogarty told investigators her friend Leigh Ann Clark said she saw [redacted] shooting in the cafeteria. (11k, p.1421)

This bit is not contained in Clark's interview, however, Clark saw something suspicious that morning that could be relevant to the presence of a third shooter.

Clark saw 1 person she described as suspicious more than two hours before the shooting began, but did not see any suspects while the shooting was happening.

Clark said she saw the suspicious person at 9:00 a.m. walking past the pay phones. She described him as 6 feet tall, white, skinny, wearing a backwards hat and sunglasses, black pants, black boots, chains all over his hat and clothes, and a long black coat with some kind of red heart cross design on the coat. This matches Chris Morris' description.

From Clark's interview:

"I have second hour off about 9:00 am. I was walking to see my friend in Jewelry class and he was walking past the phones, he was tall, about 6', white, skinny, his hat was backwards, he had sunglasses on, black long coat with some kind of a red heart cross thing on it, black army boots that went up high to the knees, black pants with pockets on the sides, chains everywhere on him, and a black backpack. He was walking slowly and looking around slowly. (11k, p.2723)

"Leigh Ann stated she saw the "weird" student as she was approaching this classroom around 9:00 A.M., and the person was looking all around while walking slowly down the hallway. The suspicious person was alone and wearing his hat on his head backwards. She went on to say he had sunglasses that were plastic and all black with circular lenses on. An insignia was in the center of a long black coat. The coat was almost knee length. It had pockets on the side and he wore it with the collar raised up in the back. Leigh Ann feels the jacket was open and had buttons to close it instead of a zipper. (11k, p.2725)

"The suspicious party was carrying a black backpack over his right shoulder. He had metal chains on his hat, backpack, and pants. His black pants were fabric, not jean material, and had pockets on the side. His boots were black and high, almost to the knee with black shoe strings. Leigh Ann doesn't think she knew him or would be able to identify him if seen again." (11k, p.2726)

We know she was given a lineup containing a photo of Joe Stair since they forgot to redact this information:

"She first carefully examined the Stair lineup, and related that none of the individuals pictured was the subject she had seen on the telephone at CHS on 04-20-99." (11k, p.2728)

"She next examined the [REDACTED] lineup, and following her looking at all those individuals pictured, pointed to photo #6 [REDACTED], and said he closely resembled the subject she had sen on the payphone at CHS at approximately 0900, the morning of the shootings. She felt confident of her identification and noted she did not know the subject as being a student at CHS." (11k, p.2728)

She went on to say that the subject had been using the pay phones located near the attendance office and had been on the phone nearest the interior wall.

28. Leiha Murphy [11k, pp.3827-3840]

Murphy did not see any gunmen or suspects. She saw 1 person running away from the school whom she identified as Joe Stair.

In his interview, Stair reported that he was at home with his mother at the time of the shooting. Stair's younger sister, Amanda, called the house around noon and that was the first Joe had heard of the shooting. Stair said he watched the news for about an hour and then he and his mom went to pick up Amanda.

From Murphy's interview:

"I noticed some commotion at the door. I thought it was a fight or something and walked over that way to get a better look. Outside, by the corner of the building, I saw a guy I recognized as [redacted] (Joseph Stair). He was running, but I couldn't tell where he was running to or from. Stair had his blonde hair down. It's past his shoulders. He's about 6' tall, skinny, he was wearing a long dark trench coat. I saw him from his waist up. I saw nothing in his hands. He was observed a short distance from whatever was going on at the door. My thoughts were that [redacted] (Joseph Stair) was involved if there was a fight." (11k, pp.3828-3829)

It should be noted that Stair passed four polygraph tests that asked him if he participated in or helped plan the attack. However, he told investigators that (1) Harris & Klebold had never talked about making guns or bombs with him, (2) he, himself, had never made a bomb, and (3) he was completely shocked that the perpetrators were Harris & Klebold. However, what Stair told investigators isn't true and many people know it's not true.

Stair personally told someone working on this encyclopedia that he wasn't shocked at all that Harris & Klebold were the shooters. He said nobody from their loose group of friends and associates was really shocked. It was more like they couldn't believe they went through with it, as if it was already talked about, which it was.

Stair even told NBC news early on that Harris & Klebold "knew how to make just about every type of explosive that you can make using household products." If he didn't talk about or make bombs with Harris & Klebold, how would he know about their extensive bomb-making abilities? How could Stair pass four polygraphs when telling investigators he didn't know they were making and detonating bombs?

According to NBC news, Stair and members of the TCM made pipe bombs as "something to do." Stair clarified this comment on the CRTF forum and said he didn't mean that he made bombs as "something to do," but that he researched how to make bombs as "something to do." According to Stair, the NBC reporter quoted him incorrectly.

29. Mark Hengel [11k, pp.5898-5903]

Hengel saw two suspects dressed in all black matching Harris & Klebold's descriptions, but did not recognize either of the suspects. Hengel picked out Dylan Klebold and [redacted] (possibly Chris Morris) from a photo lineup. Hengel reported seeing both suspects wearing black trench coats inside the school at a time when Harris had already dropped his trench coat outside. However, in a follow-up interview he clarified that he can't be sure the shorter suspect was wearing a trench coat.

From Hengel's interview:

"In the corner of this hallway and the East/West hallway on the North side of the auditorium, Hengel saw two white males dressed all in black whom he did not recognize."

"Hengel saw one of the individuals, who was tall and skinny, dressed in black pants, black boots, and a black trench coat, repeatedly fire a gun [Hengel was unable to describe it further] East down the hallway towards the administration and main offices. Hengel could see the shell casings ejecting and what he thought were bullets coming from the muzzle of the gun."

"Next to the tall skinny shooter, Hengel saw another person, also dressed in a black trench coat bending over a large black duffel bag. This person appeared to be looking for something in the bag. Since the person's back was to Hengel, he could not provide a description of this person other than he had the impression he was overweight."

"After taking this quick peek from behind the pillar, Hengel turned to say something to Witt, and saw Mr. Sanders lying on the floor near the top of the stairs, with blood all around him." (11k, p.5900)

30. Matt Katzenmeier [11k, pp.3423-3425]

Katzenmeier saw 1 suspect loosely matching Klebold's description and 1 suspect loosely matching Harris' description. He identified Eric Harris from a photo lineup.

Katzenmeier was added to this list because a student named Darlene Mesch heard that someone saw four subjects carrying in bags. Mesch heard this from her supervisor, Mona Madden, who said she heard it from Matt Katzenmeier. (11k, p.5745)

Katzenmeier also stated that two other students told him they saw suspects with guns and based on this hearsay, Katzenmeier told investigators he did not "feel" like the gunman described by the other students were the 2 suspects he saw.

This is hearsay and does not qualify as suspect identification.

However, while he observed the two suspects outside of the cafeteria, he heard gunshots in the upstairs area of the school.

From Katzenmeier's interview:

"Matt observed 1 suspect by the West entrance to the library and this suspect was described as 6-3 w/m long brown hair and a black ski mask and black pants and with an unknown weapon. Matt then saw another male described as 5-9 w/m with black trench coat and a black baseball hat turned backwards and that this person threw a pipe bomb towards the doors."

"Matt also states that he observed an older light green car, possibly a Buick, driving around the senior parking lot and that it contained one person whom he did not know, but that the car "peeled out" of the parking lot when the shooting started."

"Matt related that he heard shots or explosions in the school at the same time that the 2 suspects were outside the school." (11k, p.3424)

"A Nick Goodrich stated to Matt that a person was running down the language arts hallway trying to break windows out with a pistol handle and an unknown person stated to Matt that a person was in the main hallway at that time with a shotgun and that Matt did not feel it was the original 2 suspects." (11k, p.3424)

31. Melissa Chavez [11k, p.9023]

Chavez was not a Columbine High School student. Chavez claims she overheard Eric Harris and five other boys planning the Columbine High School shooting back in 1998. Chavez said she met Harris and Klebold at the Funplex arcade in 1997 and saw them 15-25 times over the years.

It's been alleged that Harris & Klebold showed her a map of where they would bomb the school, but that's not what her interview says.

From Chavez' interview:

"On approximately July of 1998, which was about the fifth time she saw Harris and Klebold at Funplex, they were again with four other boys that they were with often. Melissa described them group [sic] of six boys as sitting next to the area where she was inside Funplex. She said she overheard some of their conversation as they were talking about where they were going to place the "bombs" in the "school," and were pointing to a "map." She described this map as being a standard sized piece of paper (8.5"x11") and thought it looked hand drawn."

"Melissa volunteered that she has "felt bad" about having heard them planning the "bombing" and didn't do anything about it." (11k, pp.9022-9023)

32. Patrick Vassar [11k, pp.4690-4694]

While in the cafeteria, Vassar saw four or five individuals in black trench coats walking away from the school at 11:15 a.m. One individual in the group was wearing camouflage pants. When the shooting began about five minutes later, Vassar ran up the stairs and down the main hall. When he turned back, he saw a person with a gun matching Klebold's description standing at the top of the stairs in a cloud of smoke. He never saw the shooter's face.

From Vassar's interview:

"Pat said that he did not see anyone's face. He just seen what one of the shooters was wearing. He told me that the person he saw had a long black coat on, dark hair, about 6'3" tall." (11k, p.4694)

33. Richard Olejniczak [no interview available]

Olejniczak was the father of Alicia and Sarah Olejniczak. He was not at the school during the incident and did not see anything.

Although this is hearsay, it came from witnesses right after the incident and might be accurate information.

Olejniczak was added to this list because he reported hearsay to investigators while they were interviewing his daughters. Olejniczak stated "while he was at Leawood Elementary School, waiting for information about his two daughters, he talked with two girls who came from the school. The girls said they had seen two guys in the cafeteria, wearing all black. There were also two guys who entered the main door from the parking lot. One was in black, the other in white. The girls said they all had guns." (11k, p.5070)

34. Ryan Ezzie [11k, pp.2966-2967; 10k, pp.20612-20613]

Ezzie was added to this list because he reported walking by the the library, seeing holes in the windows, and said he "saw 4 kids standing outside dressed in black with hats on backwards (I couldn't see who they were cause I was too far away)." (11k, p.2967) & (11k, pp.20612-20613)

From Ezzie's interview:

"Started walking towards the library & the windows had holes in them. I saw 4 kids standing outside dressed in black with hats on backwards (I couldn't see who they were cause I was too far away)." (11k, p.2967)

35. Sara Houy [11k, pp.379-392]

Houy was in the library throughout the incident, but saw no suspects or weapons.

Houy was added to this list because she reported hearing bombs in the commons the whole time she was in the library.

From Houy's interview:

"She did hear bombs exploding downstairs prior to the shooting in the library. However, she thought the bombs were going off downstairs as the suspects were already by or inside the library. That is why she thinks there were more than two suspects." (11k, p.385)

36. William Arapkiles [pp.658-661]

Arapkiles saw a third suspect wearing a white t-shirt with two trench coated shooters.

From Arapkiles' interview:

"He said that he looked toward the school and observed three people near the West entrance to the North main hall. Billy stated that two of the subjects were wearing trench coats, and the third was wearing a white shirt."

"According to Billy, the two subjects wearing the trench coats had guns. He did not see the subject with the white shirt with a firearm. Billy related that the subject wearing the white shirt was pacing back and forth and was about five feet away from the two in trench coats."

"Billy did not think the subject wearing the white shirt was a victim but was with the other two. Billy reported that he was too far away to recognize the subjects." (11k, p.660)

37. Tiffany Lien [pp.962-975]

Lien saw a suspect matching Klebold's description shoot Ann Marie Hochhalter and Lance Kirklin from the stairs. She described the suspect as "approximately 6'0", 17-18 years of age with dark long curled up brown hair, down the back and over the ears with a black baseball hat worn backwards. A black t-shirt, black jeans and a black trench coat, black combat boots with his pans tucked in and the jacket unbuttoned. Witness Lien stated that the suspect had no gloves nor mask on. Lien stated that gunman number one carried a black gun, which was larger than a handgun and was holding it with two hands, describing a handgun similar to the TEC-9." (11k, p.967)

Lien was left on this list since it doesn't appear she got the idea that the suspect was [redacted] (most likely Robert Perry) from others, and this was her determination. Although, the other people who identified Perry or another shooter mostly matching Klebold's description said that suspect was wearing a white t-shirt under his trench coat and was wearing a mask at that time.

From Lien's interview:

"Lien stated that once at the seminary on Polk and Pierce, students, to include herself, began looking through a 1998 Columbine High School yearbook, at which time she believes that she observes a photo of [redacted]. Lien stated at that time she believed gunman number one was [redacted] but that now she was not as sure as she was on 04-20-99."

"Lien stated that she believes gunman number one used to be a student at Columbine High School, but has since then dropped out prior to 04-20-99 and that she has seen him in the school before." (11k, p.968)

Witnesses whose statements still need to be verified by this encyclopedia

Tessa Nelson [El Paso 1-113]

"I asked her if she saw the source of the shots. She said she saw a male, who she thought was Robert Perry, wearing boots, dark jeans with dark hair, walking down the stairs outside the cafeteria. She said the male suspect pulled a gun and started shooting."

Wade Allen Frank [El Paso 1-91]

"Mr. Frank told me that he thought originally one of the individuals(shooting) was someone by the name of Robert..." "He stated that the person was tall, approximately 6'3" and kind of awkward and gangly."